Democracy: crap/not crap

[redsquirrel]

What form of democracy do you want? If one says Brexit was democratic because the popular vote won then our General elections are not democratic because party MPs do not reflect the popular vote. One could argue that our General elections at least produce the government somebody wants whereas PR produces governments nobody wants but equally PR should ensure a centrist government & prevent extremist governments left or right which could be a plan. China, Russia & plenty of other countries do not do democracy because their dictators know that fair elections would not produce the required result.

So the "form of democracy" is limited to electoral systems?

Sorry but this is pretty weak stuff isn't it. What about economic democracy? What about direct democracy?

 

[redsquirrel]

Some things about the UK parliamentary system which make it fundamentally undemocratic:

-First part the post single-member constituencies.
-Enactment of legislation by simple majority.
-Ministerial appointments by party leaders not by parliament or public poll.
-Outside financial interests of MPs.
-Unelected upper chamber.
-Non-binding manifesto commitments.

...etc etc etc.

Christ, an "anarchist" is coming out with this gash. FFS

 

[Pickman's model]

What form of democracy do you want? If one says Brexit was democratic because the popular vote won then our General elections are not democratic because party MPs do not reflect the popular vote. One could argue that our General elections at least produce the government somebody wants whereas PR produces governments nobody wants but equally PR should ensure a centrist government & prevent extremist governments left or right which could be a plan. China, Russia & plenty of other countries do not do democracy because their dictators know that fair elections would not produce the required result.

Not sure the referendum was democratic

 

[William of Walworth]

Not sure the referendum was democratic

It definitely was not.

 

[gosub]

It definitely was not.

And yet leave still won [emoji14]

 

[William of Walworth]

I'll be back tomorrow or Monday on this one

 

[redsquirrel]

It definitely was not.

On what basis?

 

[William of Walworth]

redsquirrel : See post 96

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

Not sure the referendum was democratic

Back it up please, otherwise it's just guff.

 

[Raheem]

Not sure the referendum was democratic

Maybe not, but the result was announced by a Dimbleby. Under our constitution, that means there's no going back.

 

[Pickman's model]

Back it up please, otherwise it's just guff.

I think it was undemocratic as the votes outside England immaterial since it was counted on a per capita basis. As the UK no longer a wholly unitary state, the Celtic nations' votes to.remain should arguably have been recognised. The campaign was characterised by lies and half-truths and many people voted on the basis of those mendacious statements, not necessarily on the basis of fact. Tho 16 and 17 year aulds voted in the Scottish ref they were denied a vote in this more important exercise. Expats denied votes. Etc etc

 

[Pickman's model]

Back it up please, otherwise it's just guff.

Come on then, why do you think it was democratic?

 

[Pickman's model]

Back it up please, otherwise it's just guff.

*taps watch*

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

I think it was undemocratic as the votes outside England immaterial since it was counted on a per capita basis. As the UK no longer a wholly unitary state, the Celtic nations' votes to.remain should arguably have been recognised. The campaign was characterised by lies and half-truths and many people voted on the basis of those mendacious statements, not necessarily on the basis of fact. Tho 16 and 17 year aulds voted in the Scottish ref they were denied a vote in this more important exercise. Expats denied votes. Etc etc

Not sure any of that == undemocratic

 

[Pickman's model]

Back it up please, otherwise it's just guff.

Oh: and as we don't live in a democracy it would have been astonishing if the referendum had bucked the trend by being democratic

 

[Pickman's model]

Not sure any of that == undemocratic

Back it up or it's just guff

 

[brogdale]

I think it was undemocratic as the votes outside England immaterial since it was counted on a per capita basis. As the UK no longer a wholly unitary state, the Celtic nations' votes to.remain should arguably have been recognised. The campaign was characterised by lies and half-truths and many people voted on the basis of those mendacious statements, not necessarily on the basis of fact. Tho 16 and 17 year aulds voted in the Scottish ref they were denied a vote in this more important exercise. Expats denied votes. Etc etc

Not forgetting the obvious one that neither option changes the fundamentals regarding the actually existing sovereignty of financialised capital and the 'markets'.
Fake choice.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

Back it up or it's just guff

Back what up? You're the one having a cow about the "world's not fair"

 

[Pickman's model]

Back what up? You're the one having a cow about the "world's not fair"

So it's one thing for you to ask people to back stuff up but if anyone dares ask you to do the same you post a stream of piss. How inconsequential your opinions are, as weighty as a fart.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

Come on then, why do you think it was democratic?

Because we all got to vote.

Ex pats -- fuck em. They chose to leave the U.K. so don't deserve a voice.

16-17 year "aulds" in Scotland -- 16-17 year olds aren't adults and aren't entitled to join in yet.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because we all got to vote.

Ex pats -- fuck em. They chose to leave the U.K. so don't deserve a voice.

16-17 year "aulds" in Scotland -- 16-17 year olds aren't adults and aren't entitled to join in yet.

We all got to vote.

Except the ones who didn't.

But fuck 'em.

How democratic.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

We all got to vote.

Except the ones who didn't.

But fuck 'em.

How democratic.

Are we still talking about the Scottish minors, or do you have another bunch of unvotables in mind?

 

[brogdale]

Because we all got to vote.

Ex pats -- fuck em. They chose to leave the U.K. so don't deserve a voice.

16-17 year "aulds" in Scotland -- 16-17 year olds aren't adults and aren't entitled to join in yet.

Many ex pats were able to vote; only those with 15+ years outside of UK were denied.

 

[mojo pixy]

Might makes right. There is no democracy unless powerful people allow it to exist - and we know what happens if powerful people decide not to allow it to exist. I'm not even sure humanity as a whole has even evolved past this point yet. We've certainly been stuck here for a while.

 

[brogdale]

Because we all got to vote.

Ex pats -- fuck em. They chose to leave the U.K. so don't deserve a voice.

16-17 year "aulds" in Scotland -- 16-17 year olds aren't adults and aren't entitled to join in yet.

No, only 33 million did.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

Many ex pats were able to vote; only those with 15+ years outside of UK were denied.

I know.

You might want to tell Pickman's Model. He thinks you abdicate your right to vote whenever you dip your toe in the channel.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

No, only 33 million did.

Tell me -- who didn't have the chance to vote?

 

[Gromit]

I'd quote Pratchett on democracy but I'm feeling lazy.

It's definitely feeling lately (more than usual) as:
Government for the elite, by the elite supported by idiots believing dumb rhetoric.

By the people for the people is a distant memory.

 

[brogdale]

I know.

You might want to tell Pickman's Model. He thinks you abdicate your right to vote whenever you dip your toe in the channel.

Yes, you know now that I've corrected what you said.

It would seem that some of the ex pat 'leave' voters in Spain etc. are now reflecting on what impact their choice may have upon their access to health-care provided reciprocally free at the point of delivery.

 

[brogdale]

Tell me -- who didn't have the chance to vote?

20 million UK citizens not registered, and possibly some of the 13 million non-voting registered.