Democracy: crap/not crap

[SqueakyBumTime]

ah the cop out answer.

Come on, you can surely manage a proper answer there aren't that many options.

1. Expats get to vote in the elections of their home country (country they're from) only
2. Expats get to vote in the elections of the country they're living in only
3. Expats get to vote in elections in both countries.
4. Expats don't get to vote at all.
   
5. A combination of the above options depending on length of out of their home country.

4.

It's only this country that would think otherwise.

 

[free spirit]

At the time of the referendum there were an estimated 3.3M (non U.K.) EU citizens resident in the U.K. Of those, only a small number of commonwealth (Cypriot & Maltese) citizens were "entitled" to vote. It goes without saying that, had they been able to do so, it would have been in their interest to have voted remain.
What was the winning margin?

So that's 3.3 million EU citizens, 2 million UK ex pats, and 1.5 million 16 & 17 year olds who weren't entitled to vote, all 3 groups had support levels of 70% plus for staying in the EU, and all 3 groups had more invested in the decision than pretty much any other group that did have the vote.

vs a 1.2 million winning margin.

That looks to be a funny form of democratic mandate to me.

 

[brogdale]

4.

How democratic.

 

[SqueakyBumTime]

How democratic.

I just picked any number. You all seem a bit wack

 

[nardy]

2 million expats who'll probably be more directly impacted by the vote than anyone who did have the vote.

I cared about my last flat, but I moved out for something "better". I'm now pissed off by the new choice of wallpaper there, and I DEMAND a say

ditto anyone under the age of 18.

Yeah, we should certainly extend the vote down to 3-year olds

 

[free spirit]

4.

It's only this country that would think otherwise.

We're one of only 6 countries in the EU that places any restrictions on voting rights of our citizens who live elsewhere in the EU.

The right to vote in elections is a fundamental human right, people shouldn't have been disenfranchised in this way on such a fundamental issue that will determine the future direction of this country and of their lives more irrevocably than pretty much any other election.

Basically they just kept the same rules as for a general election because that was the simplest lowest cost way of doing things, but they ignored the fact that the magnitude of the decision wasn't the same as a general election and arguably would impact on those who weren't allow to vote the most.

 

[free spirit]

I cared about my last flat, but I moved out for something "better". I'm now pissed off by the new choice of wallpaper there, and I DEMAND a say

I doubt your last flat issued you passport, paid your pension or could decide for you on whether or not you'd be allowed to still live in your new flat.

Yeah, we should certainly extend the vote down to 3-year olds

Scotland thought its 16 year olds understood the issue well enough to vote on independence. Do they just grow up faster north of the border or was there actually no legitimate reason to disenfranchise 1.5 million people who have to live with the decision the longest?

 

[nardy]

I doubt your last flat issued you passport, paid your pension or could decide for you on whether or not you'd be allowed to still live in your new flat.

My last flat was reasonable. But not reasonable enough to let me dictate future wallpaper.

Scotland thought its 16 year olds understood the issue well enough to vote on independence. Do they just grow up faster north of the border or was there actually no legitimate reason to disenfranchise 1.5 million people who have to live with the decision the longest?

You obviously didn't read my previous post. I said that we should have extended the vote down to 3-year olds.

 

[nardy]

Off to bed now, peeps. See you tomato!

 

[free spirit]

You obviously didn't read my previous post. I said that we should have extended the vote down to 3-year olds.

would that have meant you could vote?

Sorry cba with that level of bollocks.

 

[pk]

Cucks. Snowflakes. Trustafarians.

Democracy is changing

 

[Yossarian]

4.

It's only this country that would think otherwise.

Italy not only lets expats vote, it has 12 seats in parliament for them.

 

[redsquirrel]

Guess who on a thread arguing about PR

as far as I'm aware,the choice is between partnering up with new labour or conservative here. I was presuming weltweit wasn't a tory, and would prefer us to go with new labour, a party that as far as I'm concerned has demonstrated that it's lost touch with any principles it may once have had over the last 13 years.

if we were to go in with new labour I'd hope that it would be on the basis of them agreeing to a massive roll back of their police state type policies amongst other things, because we actually do have some principles (I hope).

(my emphasis) Hooray for democracy!

Also worth reading for the defence of pass laws by the same pratt who claims he's in favour of no borders. As BA said Janus freaks.

 

[brogdale]

I just picked any number. You all seem a bit wack

Oh, the ironing!

 

[Pickman's model]

I know.

You might want to tell Pickman's Model. He thinks you abdicate your right to vote whenever you dip your toe in the channel.

And this occasional right to vote, I suppose that is what democracy consists of.

 

[William of Walworth]

free spirit with his posts above, said what I think, largely.

 

[redsquirrel]

free spirit with his posts above, said what I think, largely.

Right so the UK isn't a democracy because (1) after 15 years of living outside the country (and paying no taxes) those with UK passports are not allowed to vote and (2) 16 & 17 year olds aren't allowed to vote.

William you get all huffy when people call you a liberal but this is classic liberal bullshit.The electoral method, election rules, they're trivialities, other countries have PR, they are no more democratic, allowing passport holders the right to vote for life doesn't make democracy.

Put simply the UK isn't democratic because it is capitalist. Pissing about with most of the stuff mentioned on this thread isn't going to change that simple fact.

 

[William of Walworth]

The UK isn't democratic because it is capitalist.

Now that's definitely true -- and true in every respect you and I could very easily identify.

But a lot of my objections to capitalist democracy aren't very 'liberal' at all. I've been fucked off for ever, OK since Thatcher or earlier, with the capitalist media lying to people. And as for the oh-so-liberal BBC (etc.) repeating/publicising Daily Mail (etc.) shite, that's even worse.

But.

I have major issues with people just lazily believing the lies they're told, too. I (genuinely) respect people who are inherently sceptical about media bollocks, and who challenge that, far more then I have any time for people who repeat capitalist media-influenced 'anecdotes' about foreigners and benefit claimants in pubs. And I spend a lot of time in pubs, so I hear that shite all the time. I confess that I'm rubbish myself at engaging with and challenging bigotry, and I have to admit that .
I prefer to talk half-way intelligent shite with smarter people. Who are also around in the same pubs, and who also like beer. So lies banged on about elsewhere in the same pubs remain far too much unchallenged, and I share responsibility for that with friends who would also prefer to talk sense.

But whatever you dislike about the paragraph above, the referendum was not democratic IMO, because the media got away with far too many lies.

And far too many people believed them. Some shared responsibility there between the media and its consumers I'd say.

(You also don't want to hear the shite I endure at work about Brexit. Hence my powerful headphones and my multi-tune-containing gadget that daily insulates me from all that , and also from all their ultra-boring natter about family, crap TV, etc.)

My well-leftie PCS rep thinks very similarly indeed about most of the above, but he's far better at making an effort and being patient than I could ever be ... and good on him, he has to be, because he represents peoples' workplace rights professionally.

 

[nardy]

Put simply the UK isn't democratic because it is capitalist

Totally disagree. In my view, capitalism IS democracy -- and freedom.

I can hear the howls of dissent now ... "capitalism is working in shitty jobs paying peanuts" ... "capitalism means people will always be unemployed, some on the scrap-heap" ... "capitalism means no-one is paid in full for their labour: the surplus is profit for the bosses" ... and all the rest. I've heard the lot.

No system is perfect. But I'd prefer to live in capitalism than any alternative system. And so would the vast majority of everyone else, otherwise an alternative model would have arisen, and we'd be living in it due to popular demand.

"Oh, the media lie to us!" is another chant. Well, fewer and fewer people read newspapers, and even less people believe what they see on TV.

To me, capitalism is the freedom to chart your own course, assuming health and reasonable mental capacity (as I said, no system is perfect).

I do feel sorry for some dissenters of capitalism. They seem to spend their lives railing against it, yet achieving nothing.

 

[mojo pixy]

Capitalism isn't the same as Having and Using a Means of Exchange of Labour.

The problems with capitalism aren't around the existence of money as such a means of exchange. The problems are around holding on to it, amassing it, and massive disparities in the ability to gain it based on un-merited privilege and un-earned poverty (eta: among other things)

 

[nardy]

The problems are around holding on to it [capital]

If it's not being spent it's not creating demand, thus not pushing up prices.

The problems are ... amassing it ...

See above.

... and massive disparities in the ability to gain it based on un-merited privilege and un-earned poverty.

Many successful business people made money starting from scratch. The guy who started "The Range" chain of stores began with a market stall, and is now a billionaire DESPITE (by his own admission) being illiterate. Ditto Marks & Sparks (minus the illiteracy). Bill Gates. The Facebook guy. The Harry Pott ... oh, I could go on all night.

 

[mojo pixy]

Great, that's four people. Only another seven billion to account for in the capitalist dream. Keep going, all night...

 

[nardy]

Great, that's four people. Only another seven billion to account for in the capitalist dream. Keep going, all night...

Oh yeah, sorry, you're right. There are only four self-made billionaires (plus the other few I could type out from memory) in billions of people. My bad

 

[Yossarian]

So self-made billionaires, who are about as common as two-headed cows, are proof of capitalism working, but hundreds of millions of people living in poverty aren't proof of capitalism failing?

 

[gorski]

These phenomena aren't without contradictions or difficulties...

 

[seventh bullet]

Kill them all and expropriate their wealth.

 

[redsquirrel]

But a lot of my objections to capitalist democracy aren't very 'liberal' at all. I've been fucked off for ever, OK since Thatcher or earlier, with the capitalist media lying to people. And as for the oh-so-liberal BBC (etc.) repeating/publicising Daily Mail (etc.) shite, that's even worse.

The objections you lay out are shot with liberalism all the way through (as well as being patronising rubbish). Everybody reading the Guardian (a pillar of the truth) does not make a society more democratic.

 

[brogdale]

In my view, capitalism IS democracy

That vote for higher pay for workers and lower pay for bosses at your place of work...how did it pan out?

 

[Pickman's model]

Totally disagree. In my view, capitalism IS democracy -- and freedom.

I can hear the howls of dissent now ... "capitalism is working in shitty jobs paying peanuts" ... "capitalism means people will always be unemployed, some on the scrap-heap" ... "capitalism means no-one is paid in full for their labour: the surplus is profit for the bosses" ... and all the rest. I've heard the lot.

No system is perfect. But I'd prefer to live in capitalism than any alternative system. And so would the vast majority of everyone else, otherwise an alternative model would have arisen, and we'd be living in it due to popular demand.

"Oh, the media lie to us!" is another chant. Well, fewer and fewer people read newspapers, and even less people believe what they see on TV.

To me, capitalism is the freedom to chart your own course, assuming health and reasonable mental capacity (as I said, no system is perfect).

I do feel sorry for some dissenters of capitalism. They seem to spend their lives railing against it, yet achieving nothing.

So how do you explain the existence of democracy without capitalism e.g. in antient Greece or capitalism without democracy as in e.g. China?

 

[redsquirrel]

No system is perfect. But I'd prefer to live in capitalism than any alternative system. And so would the vast majority of everyone else, otherwise an alternative model would have arisen, and we'd be living in it due to popular demand.

What a utterly bizarre argument.This one's got to be a wind up surely.