Democracy: crap/not crap
- Thread starter nardy
- Start date
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
capitalist mealy-mouthism. If you didn't have a state to be bought to protect you we'd string you up from the lamposts and we'd be right to do so. Remember that when you fake sleep in your fake richman bed. We won't even spare the dogs.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
we wait with bated breath for the wisdom you are sure to bring to the table.
Positive or negative freedom?
You're right no system is perfect. Democracy and Capitalism are in opposition to one another though.
Under Capitalism the wealthy have more power and opportunites. The vast majority of the elite are those who have inherited wealth and privilege. Social mobility is unfortunately rare and getting rarer.
Privately educated elite continues to take top jobs, finds survey
24 February 2016
There are of course a few exceptions like those self-made billionaires you spoke of.
You said "I do feel sorry for some dissenters of capitalism. They seem to spend their lives railing against it, yet achieving nothing."
What things are worth achieving? Is it good or worthwile that I look after my sick and elderly parents? Or that I work for the council trying to help those who can't help themselves. Virtue *spits* signaling. Is that as worthwhile as the accumulation of capital?
But you know I'm just full of bitterness and resentment.
Should hundreds of billions, yes billions, have been spent on quantitiative easing to support the assets of the already wealthy? Or instead should they have invested in infrastructure, social care, the NHS and welfare state...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's if he makes it to the table
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if that's the case then people who do dangerous things like mining ought to be enjoying vast profits: not the wankers in the boardroom but the people literally at the coalface (or [mineral]face).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh. but surely you recognise you can't have capitalism in the uk without capitalism in e.g. france and ireland. and you can't have capitalism in the uk without effective slave labour in e.g. bangladesh or india. so what you're really saying is 'i, nardy, support slave labour as it offers opportunity'. which even you ought to recognise isn't a sensible position to advocate.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not "Marxist claptrap" but basic classic economics.
As for profit being the reward for risk and enterprise, that's true some of the time, but not all, and as a "justification" for capitalism, it has no legs because of that.
gorski
customised free radical
The kind of rewards you are talking about are rare. Most of it happened thanx to state funded innovation, given away to (American) corporations, without any risk involved whatsoever. Socialised risk, private profiteering.
Add on top of that clientelism and all manner of monopolies etc. whereby the executive powers/lawmakers involved were directly funded by the recipients of those "risk taking exercises" etc. etc.
Free market never existed, even at the very beginning, at the time of classical liberal theory formation...
Long time ago "self-made crap" was debunked. Just look at the numbers - dangling a sausage on a stick to dumb dogs pulling your cart...
"Nothing succeeds like success" was always just a myth - but for most it works, hence Capitalism managed to "motivate" a lot of people to go out and perform every day with 105% of their abilities, unlike "Real Socialism", for instance or Feudalism or... This is just one of its aspects, of course. As Marx stated long ago, its capacity to invest and so on is unsurpassed. But nowadays, with "monopolistic capital" on the scene - things are very bleak in so many ways...
Add on top of that clientelism and all manner of monopolies etc. whereby the executive powers/lawmakers involved were directly funded by the recipients of those "risk taking exercises" etc. etc.
Free market never existed, even at the very beginning, at the time of classical liberal theory formation...
Long time ago "self-made crap" was debunked. Just look at the numbers - dangling a sausage on a stick to dumb dogs pulling your cart...
"Nothing succeeds like success" was always just a myth - but for most it works, hence Capitalism managed to "motivate" a lot of people to go out and perform every day with 105% of their abilities, unlike "Real Socialism", for instance or Feudalism or... This is just one of its aspects, of course. As Marx stated long ago, its capacity to invest and so on is unsurpassed. But nowadays, with "monopolistic capital" on the scene - things are very bleak in so many ways...
Far too many points to answer in the limited time I have, but if any points anyone raised convinced me towards socialism, rest assured that I'd say so. As far as I'm concerned, socialism is a busted flush -- and I'm talking about everything from Corbynism to communism.
The further left you move, the worse the economy gets, and without a strong economy everyone's stuffed. Also (in the UK at least) the further left you go, the less the voters like it.
So talk among your socialist selves on this board till the cows come home, but it won't make a jot of difference in the outside world. Your ideas are NOT accepted by the general populace.
The further left you move, the worse the economy gets, and without a strong economy everyone's stuffed. Also (in the UK at least) the further left you go, the less the voters like it.
So talk among your socialist selves on this board till the cows come home, but it won't make a jot of difference in the outside world. Your ideas are NOT accepted by the general populace.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Personally, I don't believe that socialism is some sort of magical panacea; but that's beside the point. The issue under discussion is the efficacy [and flaws] of capitalism. And in my opinion, it is flawed. Whether or not some alternate system also has flaws, isn't relevant.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
funny that, I too can speak for the general populace...actually wait I can't because it would be foolish of me to speak for an electorate of around 30m
But it is kind of you to note the economy which is in the throes of its worst crises since the 1930s. Alls good if your good eh jack?
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Communism will win eventually, and the corpses of many nardies will act as signposts.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Well, when your little world collapses in the aftermath of the next banking crisis or recession you can comfort yourself that it's the logical outcome of your preferred mode of production
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
gorski
customised free radical
I hope not, SB, for we would have stayed the same, in that case of violence unleashed...
Nardy, Social Democracy (Scandiland)is far superior to anything Social Darwinism (US and co.) can possibly throw at the world, in just about every respect.
Find Gosta Esping-Andersen's "Politics against markets" and learn about a very real, viable option that most Americans today can only drool over...
EDIT: https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/Soc924-2011/924-2011-book-project/Esping-Andersen.pdf
Nardy, Social Democracy (Scandiland)is far superior to anything Social Darwinism (US and co.) can possibly throw at the world, in just about every respect.
Find Gosta Esping-Andersen's "Politics against markets" and learn about a very real, viable option that most Americans today can only drool over...
EDIT: https://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/Soc924-2011/924-2011-book-project/Esping-Andersen.pdf
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Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
Why not have just made this your op, given that this is what you were leading up to?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
soc/dems all well and good where and when and how it works but it is subject to constant erosion attempts by people who really should be mining salt at gunpoint and the internal contradictions of the moralist/fabian sort who never got over the prod work ethic hangover.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
The potentially transformative violence of the lower orders is always warned against, the terrible worse future if the current order is threatened, but the present violence of the ruling class with its monopoly on the legitimacy of who can be killed and how and for what (and they get to define what is legitimate), and its vast capabilities to do just that if you dare to get in the way, well it's all just the natural order of things, the 'way it is.' Good luck with everyone just, you know, being really nice to one another.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
It can mean the same thing. What is lawful.
gorski
customised free radical
seventh bullet
sovietwave
I love semantic games. Let's play, but not too many pages.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Name-dropping.
mojo pixy
interesting times
There is no ''natural law'', natural law is kill or be killed, eat or starve, procreate or die out. We've risen above that .. umm haven't we?
Anyway, no answer to this yet:
...I wonder if there will come one? nardy ?
Anyway, no answer to this yet:
...I wonder if there will come one? nardy ?
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DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
always fascinating to watch them react historicaly and currently to such a vile threat. They are scared, and they have every reason to be scared.
Of course you would. I'd expect nothing else from a communist, dot or not.
((( carin', sharin', killin' commies )))
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