Democracy: crap/not crap

[Pickman's model]

The megadeaths of Liberalism thread from 2011

Commodities traders caused starvation and malnutrition for 200 million people thread from 2010

All grist to the nardy mill

 

[William of Walworth]

This latest BBC stuff, on today's 10 pm news, about any Iraq-related investigations being dropped, will almost certainly lead to gloating Sun headlines about how 'our heroes' are no longer subject to the evil attention of 'tank chasing' lawyers.

Democracy's shit when the Sun has any influence over anything

To the Mirror's credit, it's never ran with this 'story'

 

[coley]

History doesn't agree with you. The Civil Rights movement had no 'serious teeth'; nor did the Indian Independence movement. The Women's Suffrage movement had no 'serious teeth'.

It can be boiled down to arithmetics, a course of non violent civil disobedience will always win, but how many casualties is the 'movement' prepared to accept before it collapses in the face of authorities power?
India, the US and perhaps SA are good examples, victory with relatively few casualties, 30s Spain and recently Syria are good examples where peaceful opposition ran out of patience and picked up the gun, looking to lose big time and with massive casualties.
And I wish those who advocate 'armed resistance' would spend at least a few months in a conflict zone.

 

[Pickman's model]

It can be boiled down to arithmetics, a course of non violent civil disobedience will always win, but how many casualties is the 'movement' prepared to accept before it collapses in the face of authorities power?
India, the US and perhaps SA are good examples, victory with relatively few casualties, 30s Spain and recently Syria are good examples where peaceful opposition ran out of patience and picked up the gun, looking to lose big time and with massive casualties.
And I wish those who advocate 'armed resistance' would spend at least a few months in a conflict zone.

I see the anc armed struggle written out of history, Chris Hani turning in his grave

A course of nv civil disobedience will not always win.

 

[Pickman's model]

It can be boiled down to arithmetics, a course of non violent civil disobedience will always win, but how many casualties is the 'movement' prepared to accept before it collapses in the face of authorities power?
India, the US and perhaps SA are good examples, victory with relatively few casualties, 30s Spain and recently Syria are good examples where peaceful opposition ran out of patience and picked up the gun, looking to lose big time and with massive casualties.
And I wish those who advocate 'armed resistance' would spend at least a few months in a conflict zone.

Have you heard of amritsar?

 

[coley]

Have you heard of amritsar?

Yes, of course, have you heard of Gukurahundi?
Don't be a donnered, we could play this stupid game all night.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, of course, have you heard of Gukurahundi?
Don't be a donnered, we could play this stupid game all night.

I'm keeping to the examples you mentioned, India, us, sa. But yeh broaden it out to Zimbabwe if you want. Do you honestly think colonial powers went "all right then, you're morally right, we're off"? Tosh. All this nonsense about nv civil disobedience gets the goods, ignores a huge amount of er other activity

 

[coley]

This latest BBC stuff, on today's 10 pm news, about any Iraq-related investigations being dropped, will almost certainly lead to gloating Sun headlines about how 'our heroes' are no longer subject to the evil attention of 'tank chasing' lawyers.

Democracy's shit when the Sun has any influence over anything

To the Mirror's credit, it's never ran with this 'story'

Well they were, "subjected to evil attentions" 60 million wasted, based on the accusations of a major ambulance ( ot tank, if you prefer) chaser ( now debarred)
Personally, I think those who have been put through the mincer over Shiners activities should be given legal aid to pursue the bastard for damages.
End of rant and derail.

 

[DotCommunist]

yes if only they had worked more peacefully and slowly assad would have been toppled and that. Christ.

And I wish those who advocate 'armed resistance' would spend at least a few months in a conflict zone.

Why? I'm a bad (read, nonexistent) athlete and a shitter prospect for soldier. I can cook clean and do agitprop tho.The point here is if it was asked for on their terms, you get crushed. So its grovel in the mud because war is to terrible to contemplate? That there is no inbetween? The state has the monopoly on violence, this is a well worn cliche because it is true. So where does that leave us? Because they will reduce it all to rubble before conceding we should be 'pragmatic' and yes sir no sir three bags of shit full sir?

 

[coley]

I'm keeping to the examples you mentioned, India, us, sa. But yeh broaden it out to Zimbabwe if you want. Do you honestly think colonial powers went "all right then, you're morally right, we're off"? Tosh. All this nonsense about nv civil disobedience gets the goods, ignores a huge amount of er other activity

Of course not, just that jumping to "armed resistance" nearly always leads to chaos, Syria being a nearly perfect example.
Humans are impatient, they will always go for the "quick fix" usually offered by some Johnny come lately jumping on the bandwagon of years of patient negotiating by others.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Have you heard of amritsar?

No one's suggesting it was the British employing non-violent methods in India.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course not, just that jumping to "armed resistance" nearly always leads to chaos, Syria being a nearly perfect example.
Humans are impatient, they will always go for the "quick fix" usually offered by some Johnny come lately jumping on the bandwagon of years of patient negotiating by others.

Like in Ireland, Malaya, Kenya, aden, etc etc. These patient negotiators, are they like the community leaders we used to hear so much of? I'm not advocating armed struggle under all circumstances but there are times when a diversity of tactics is desirable

 

[mojo pixy]

I'm genuinely surprised there aren't more high-level assassinations happening. It really must be a lot harder than it used to be.

 

[coley]

yes if only they had worked more peacefully and slowly assad would have been toppled and that. Christ.

Why? I'm a bad (read, nonexistent) athlete and a shitter prospect for soldier. I can cook clean and do agitprop tho.The point here is if it was asked for on their terms, you get crushed. So its grovel in the mud because war is to terrible to contemplate? That there is no inbetween? The state has the monopoly on violence, this is a well worn cliche because it is true. So where does that leave us? Because they will reduce it all to rubble before conceding we should be 'pragmatic' and yes sir no sir three bags of shit full sir?

"The state has a monopoly on violence! True, and the job of the decent people in society is to abhor violence at every level.
And to make sure politicians don't take the easy options of deploying the instruments of last resort, first.

The WC has immense power ( at least for now) it doesn't need to be violent, unfortunately it tends to look after its small individual groups.
Imagine if every body concerned with the transport infrastructure decided to unite and withdrawn their labour in London for just one weekend! the power they would have?
But no, they allow themselves to be 'bought'
But TBH, Its all a bit academic, automation, robotics, AI, autonomous transport, all on the near horizon, will certainly harden the battle lines.

 

[coley]

Like in Ireland, Malaya, Kenya, aden, etc etc. These patient negotiators, are they like the community leaders we used to hear so much of? I'm not advocating armed struggle under all circumstances but there are times when a diversity of tactics is desirable

The 'diversity of tactics' (as I mentioned earlier) is usually employed by 'Johnny come latelies"
Seeking to usurp the efforts of the Ghandis and Mandelas. Pushing aside years of patient negotiations in order to claim credit for 'independence'

 

[free spirit]

Of course not, just that jumping to "armed resistance" nearly always leads to chaos, Syria being a nearly perfect example.
Humans are impatient, they will always go for the "quick fix" usually offered by some Johnny come lately jumping on the bandwagon of years of patient negotiating by others.

am I getting this right, that you're contending that the problems in Syria are a result of them jumping to armed resistance rather than using peaceful protest?

Over 1000 people had been killed by the government in Syria during 4 months of peaceful protest prior to anyone mounting an armed attack on government forces.

 

[DotCommunist]

The 'diversity of tactics' (as I mentioned earlier) is usually employed by 'Johnny come latelies"
Seeking to usurp the efforts of the Ghandis and Mandelas. Pushing aside years of patient negotiations in order to claim credit for 'independence'

this is bullshit btw. The failures of the non armed wing- the reprisals such effrontery garners- usually drives the armed wing. No guerilla insurgencey would survive long without the support of the populace at large. They don't usually have armed bases, prison facilities, a court system and the apparatus of state to succeed. So who helped them? And the best way to shit your chips when facing an insurgency is attacking the populace, through malice or ignorance. What do you think long kesh got sorted?

 

[Pickman's model]

The 'diversity of tactics' (as I mentioned earlier) is usually employed by 'Johnny come latelies"
Seeking to usurp the efforts of the Ghandis and Mandelas. Pushing aside years of patient negotiations in order to claim credit for 'independence'

Yes. This would be the Nelson Mandela who co-founded umkhonto we sizwe.

 

[coley]

am I getting this right, that you're contending that the problems in Syria are a result of them jumping to armed resistance rather than using peaceful protest?

Over 1000 people had been killed by the government in Syria during 4 months of peaceful protest prior to anyone mounting an armed attack on government forces.

And how many have been killed, dispossessed, made homeless, since they decided to 'force the issue' Syria under Assad was certainly no bed of roses but compared to its present day state? Ditto Iraq, Libya.
I wonder how many people living in these shyteholes today would like a return to the 'status quo' ?
CONNC, can't believe I'm siding with Casually Red on this issue but the West has buggered up the ME big time and as a result we are, A, hated by most in the area. B, due to greed and incompetence (mostly on the side of the US) have ceded any influence we had in the area to Russia, ( and increasingly, China)

 

[coley]

In the UK women getting the vote came after the WPSU abandoned it's campaigns and backed the war.

And the British had largely agreed to independence prior to WW2 the War just hastened things along, looking back, mebbes too hastily?

 

[coley]

Yes. This would be the Nelson Mandela who co-founded umkhonto we sizwe.

And as a result saw the ANC labelled as a 'terrorist organisation' perhaps wouldn't happen today, but not a wise move at the time.
Though these days who can tell? expecting Trump to have the US EPA described as a 'terrorist organisation' any day now.

 

[Casually Red]

am I getting this right, that you're contending that the problems in Syria are a result of them jumping to armed resistance rather than using peaceful protest?

Over 1000 people had been killed by the government in Syria during 4 months of peaceful protest prior to anyone mounting an armed attack on government forces.

This is complete and utter bollocks . They were killing people from the word go , burning down state institutions and the like. The western media themselves were reporting it at the time and then conveniently forgot it to peddle that bullshit .

 

[Casually Red]

It can be boiled down to arithmetics, a course of non violent civil disobedience will always win, but how many casualties is the 'movement' prepared to accept before it collapses in the face of authorities power?
India, the US and perhaps SA are good examples, victory with relatively few casualties, 30s Spain and recently Syria are good examples where peaceful opposition ran out of patience and picked up the gun, looking to lose big time and with massive casualties.
And I wish those who advocate 'armed resistance' would spend at least a few months in a conflict zone.

Erm..in 30s Spain it was the left who held legitimate governmental authority while the fash were the protesting opposition . the fash picked up the gun right from the go and ultimately won. Having a better supply of them than the government .
In India the British deliberately starved 2 million to death immediately prior to its independence , in a final racist kick at those " beastly people " . That's quite a few casualties .
In Syria the opposition killed people from the outset, and indeed had been killing and attempting to kill people for many years previously . They were far from peaceful .

 

[redsquirrel]

In the Commons debates on Brexit during the last fortnight, many MPs have found themselves voting for something they do not believe in. Instead of being their constituents’ “representative”, they now appear to be no more than the people’s “delegate”.

Oh no, not delegates!

I also like the argument how having another referendum on the same issue 45+ years after first is somehow illegitimate

Fourth, though often forgotten, the EU vote was the second referendum bite at the European cherry. The issue had supposedly been settled by the referendum Harold Wilson called in 1975. Evidently, holding a referendum does not necessarily end dispute and division about how the country should be governed.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh no, not delegates!

I also like the argument how having another referendum on the same issue 45+ years after first is somehow illegitimate

not to mention that there was a scottish referendum AFTER the common market one, and another one BEFORE the eu referendum, so the precedent for a period between referenda is 35 years.