Class in Academia

[YouSir]

Kind of open ended topic for the politics forum but drawn from a more immediate thought - academia, as anyone related to it knows, is deeply influenced by class and privilege. So for a launch point for this thread if nothing else - how much do you give up to that? How much do you do just to 'play the game' in opposition to just being honest about things? And if you're in it and maybe not as middle class as you should be, how do you function in that space?

 

[Ax^]

. wrong thread

 

[YouSir]

. wrong thread

Thank fuck for that.

 

[Ax^]

my bad

 

[mango5]

The whole institution is a toxic mess propped up by folk who can afford to be overworked and underpaid and not be ungrateful for crumbs of autonomy.

Part of the game is relentless power moves masquerading as honesty, transparency and discussion. How much middle class-ness is the right amount? Very few people function well in universities ime.

 

[YouSir]

The whole institution is a toxic mess propped up by folk who can afford to be overworked and underpaid and not be ungrateful for crumbs of autonomy.

Aye, very much the feeling I get. But learning is a good thing and I want to do it. Just doing a day job isn't the same, although unless I learn to operate in that world I'll be back to just doing that soon enough.

 

[YouSir]

Part of the game is relentless power moves masquerading as honesty, transparency and discussion. How much middle class-ness is the right amount? Very few people function well in universities ime.

Alright, so that's maybe true. What next? Is there no way to go on honestly? And that's not being sarky, legit question. I'm in a position now to pursue some academic stuff, if I get funding, and I'd want to, because I like learning. But well aware that it's not made for me. Troublesome really, finding a position in that world. There may well be none.

 

[Skim]

Bourdieu is a good theoretical starting point for thinking about this, eg this book: Higher Education and Working-Class Academics

Learning is indeed a good thing, YouSir. But the precarious working conditions in HE completely suck.

 

[Pickman's model]

Alright, so that's maybe true. What next? Is there no way to go on honestly? And that's not being sarky, legit question. I'm in a position now to pursue some academic stuff, if I get funding, and I'd want to, because I like learning. But well aware that it's not made for me. Troublesome really, finding a position in that world. There may well be none.

I'm sure you'll learn stuff but much if not most of it won't be anything to do with the ostensible subject of your research

 

[YouSir]

I'm sure you'll learn stuff but much if not most of it won't be anything to do with the ostensible subject of your research

In a slightly drunken way then - what's the point? I know academia isn't the answer but I want to try at least. If I can't function in that world - and lord knows I don't seem to be part of it - then what next? We can't surrender it all to someone else, can we?

 

[splonkydoo]

The idea of abstract thought and free association being the preserve of the muddle and upper classes, is the greatest trick that academia has ever pulled.

 

[YouSir]

The idea of abstract thought and free association being the preserve of the muddle and upper classes, is the greatest trick that academia has ever pulled.

Aye, great. What next? It's universal, ok. Lots of people are smart. What do those people do? If the abstract end appeals to you, where next? They control the establishment smart end, and otherwise there's... what? How many universities do we control? Journals? Publications? Excluding some m/c Leftie micro-group nonsense? A huge amount of the smartest people are on the left, far smarter than me, but lord knows we need to find a way for that to connect to day to day life, because the opposition have and they're doing it nationally. In a purely individualistic line, we need to stop pretending to be left out and start presenting our genius front and centre. And that isn't me, but it is some people.

 

[8ball]

The idea of abstract thought and free association being the preserve of the muddle and upper classes, is the greatest trick that academia has ever pulled.

Whose Line Is It Anyway?

Tolerated for decades, and most of the perpetrators are still at large.

 

[equationgirl]

In my experience, as I've worked for academic institutions on and off since 1999, there's so much classism embedded in the whole system , never mind the embedded racism and sexism and queer phobia in some places.

There's so much elitism around where your first degree is from, then your other degrees if you have them, there's a perception that anyone with an MBA must be better than those without, even though many MBA degrees are overpriced and don't teach practical skills.

There's those academics that barely acknowledge the presence of anyone non-academic and to be fair some very well renowned academics that go out of their way to speak to postgrads. But the whole universities are monolithic impenetrable places that take around 1-2 years for someone to build a useful contact network internally, so they can actually do their jobs.

 

[dessiato]

I've not worked in British HE since the 80s, but have in Iberia for 18 years, so my experience isn't current there. What I have noticed is that class is far more important in the UK than other places. This is not to say that it doesn't happen but that it is less extreme.

A real problem is that it takes money to study to higher levels and this is not always available to the so-called working class, certainly not in the way it traditionally is for middle and upper class.

It's more complex than this, there's the other aspects, of expectation, of prejudice (race, sexuality etc) all of which play a part in putting people off from academia.

 

[mango5]

I love learning and teaching, developing my own research and pedagogies like nothing else I've ever been paid to do. I 'function' well enough in HE but I don't thrive. It's impossible to isolate class from all the other factors. The 'life of the mind' if it exists, is a rare moment that usually happens when other people are on holiday.

 

[Pickman's model]

YouSir If you want to thrive in he work in a library

 

[Pickman's model]

In a slightly drunken way then - what's the point? I know academia isn't the answer but I want to try at least. If I can't function in that world - and lord knows I don't seem to be part of it - then what next? We can't surrender it all to someone else, can we?

The thing is academia is a seething pot of rivalry shrouded underneath great courtesy. There's hierarchy everywhere, class, alma mater, your doctoral ancestors, if you are funded, institutional affiliation etc. And there's great pressure to publish for the periodic research assessment exercises. If you are a lecturer there's a fuckton of admin. Like school teaching, if you took the shitwork away it'd be really really good.

 

[Pickman's model]

And the risk of plagiarism is everywhere. Mrs model gave a paper at a conference about ten years ago and spoke to one of the other panel members only to find this nice panel member nicked her presentation and published an article about a year later.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

There's all sorts going on with this question isn't there. FWIW I work in a university in a research finance role which puts me close to some of the nuts and bolts of how things function, in certain areas at least.

One thing is that being middle class (or coming from a middle class background), while it might help isn't some key to the kingdom here. All of the stuff that people complain about is going to affect everyone - in fact because of the simple fact that more middle class people are going to do higher degrees, the majority of those that are chewed up and spat out by the early career grind are also going to be middle class.

I'm also not sure what the ideal would be tbh. There's a wider question here about who gets to do the work that they want to do - follow the dream etc. In a way it's similar to the question of who gets to be an artist or musician, or a footballer, or whatever. There's only so much need for those just as there's only so much need for Professors of History/Physics/Material Science etc. The process could be made better, and fairer, but there's still going to be a point for a lot of people where the answer comes to be 'sorry but it's not you.' And I think that underlying motivation does enable some of the more exploitative practices that go on.

Also just a couple of general points to chuck in there:

- I don't think you can ignore the international nature of this now. If an academic or research post is advertised where I work chances are it will be filled by someone from overseas. Of course that doesn't remove the element of class (arguably it emphasises it) but you'd be decades out of date to portray UK academia as dominated by stuffy posh people from Cambridge.
- I think on this one it's very hard to avoid getting into cultural definitions of class. A university professor is middle class by any other definition - if you open up access to more working class people that isn't removed.

 

[Edie]

I did a PhD in genetics in my early 20s at UCL. Mixed group of people, certainly not all middle class, in fact in my lab there were 4 PhD students and it was 50:50.

Also did a clinical lectureship last year- hated it and left (nothing to do with class).

I always ignore class, there’s no reason I shouldn’t be there, crack on and it’s never been a problem (with the exception of finding some colleagues annoying and inexplicable in their personal lives) either in university or medical school. I now lecture Med students.

Recently been working at the Evelina at St Thomas and a bunch of the medics were discussing skiing. They asked if I skiied and I cheerfully said I’d never had that experience and no one gave a shit

Not worth getting hung up on this stuff.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's only something like 20% of people who get phds get jobs as academics. So there's great over-production of people who can lecture in comparison to the number of people who will lecture

Certainly at taught pg level and possibly up at pgr level there's great over-representation of international students. But without the international students and the vast fees they pay he would fall apart

 

[brogdale]

I did a PhD in genetics in my early 20s at UCL. Mixed group of people, certainly not all middle class, in fact in my lab there were 4 PhD students and it was 50:50.

Also did a clinical lectureship last year- hated it and left (nothing to do with class).

I always ignore class, there’s no reason I shouldn’t be there, crack on and it’s never been a problem (with the exception of finding some colleagues annoying and inexplicable in their personal lives) either in university or medical school. I now lecture Med students.

Recently been working at the Evelina at St Thomas and a bunch of the medics were discussing skiing. They asked if I skiied and I cheerfully said I’d never had that experience and no one gave a shit

Not worth getting hung up on this stuff.

So, because you cracked the class ceiling, it doesn't really matter?

 

[Pickman's model]

So, because you cracked the class ceiling, it doesn't really matter?

It matters very much. I remember at a college ball seeing one student reduced to tears after she'd been bullied for being working class. Although there's been a great expansion of higher education since then there hasn't been the same growth in the number of w/c academics, who have for the past 25 years had the odds stacked against them through the imposition of tuition fees and the loss of most funding for masters' courses, not to mention informal measures like what doctoral proposals are accepted and which rejected for both supervision and funding

 

[A380]

Still, good job academia isn’t institutionally racist or sexist …

 

[Pickman's model]

Still, good job academia isn’t institutionally racist or sexist …

The rarity of black and Asian scholars in the humanities suggests otherwise, and keen observers of eg ucl's eugenics review several years back will have noted that buildings and rooms were not named after the likes of galton and pearson shortly after they left the college but in the 1970s and 1980s

 

[Boru]

The Irish artist Garrett Phelan has worked on a project called 'Free Thought - Education and Class in Ireland'. It asks some interesting questions and makes many valid points and observations.
There is a published archive and booklet available with many relevant articles.. such as 'Social Class Inequality in Ireland: What Role Does Education Play? by Kathleen Lynch.
More info and link to publication is here.. GARRETT PHELAN - FREE THOUGHT FM

Also to add, yes education is good and it helps to have a strong idea of your positioning within the institutions.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Irish artist Garrett Phelan has worked on a project called 'Free Thought - Education and Class in Ireland'. It asks some interesting questions and makes many valid points and observations.
There is a published archive and booklet available with many relevant articles.. such as 'Social Class Inequality in Ireland: What Role Does Education Play? by Kathleen Lynch.
More info and link to publication is here.. GARRETT PHELAN - FREE THOUGHT FM

Also to add, yes education is good and it helps to have a strong idea of your positioning within the institutions.

There's education and education and not all of it is good

 

[A380]

The rarity of black and Asian scholars in the humanities suggests otherwise, and keen observers of eg ucl's eugenics review several years back will have noted that buildings and rooms were not named after the likes of galton and pearson shortly after they left the college but in the 1970s and 1980s

Steeley is made from?

 

[equationgirl]

The thing is academia is a seething pot of rivalry shrouded underneath great courtesy. There's hierarchy everywhere, class, alma mater, your doctoral ancestors, if you are funded, institutional affiliation etc. And there's great pressure to publish for the periodic research assessment exercises. If you are a lecturer there's a fuckton of admin. Like school teaching, if you took the shitwork away it'd be really really good.

It's amazing how vicious some people get when the stakes are so low.

The pressure on staff now is just insane - more competition for postdoc places and then tenure positions, pressure on grant applications and PhD studentships. The teaching, the admin and increasingly the pressure to commercialise your research outputs and publish papers continuously.

There should be three streams for a ademics - lecturing, research and admin. Asking a single person to all three types of work is causing a mental health crisis across the sector.