Census 2021

[Idaho]

I put humanist. Seems the best description of me.

 

[brogdale]

"I see you want to hold a pagan nationalist street rally in the middle of an 80% orthodox jewish area, we question your motives and say no" etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

Wasn't aware that the Police or LAs used census data to make decisions about religious celebration permissions?

 

[brogdale]

planning permission

how would they know what should be stocked, if there was no information on demographics? trial and error?

Do local authority planning committees use census data to determine whether or not churches can be converted into mosques or vice versa?
As for supermarkets, pretty sure that they'll see whatever turns them a profit; if the demand exists, they'll exploit it; don't think they need censal data about religions to work that out.

 

[brogdale]

I put humanist. Seems the best description of me.

If really pushed, I think I'd have to plump for igtheism.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

You are making quite a few assumptions there then. As are the humanist society in that link. They are obviously partisan towards humanism; it is taking figures from a lot of different small surveys and trying to use them to make a very specific case (that was already decided on before they looked at any figures).

The figures from the census, however, are non-partisan. They are taken direct from the people of the country without interpretation (ie not saying "well they might have said they were religious but I don't reckon they really meant it" like the humanist article says, which is very arrogant), and it has a sample size of about 95% of the population; and because it is done every 10 years it can be tracked over time. Pretty useful. It is not going to give perfectly accurate results, but definitely more accurate than small polls done by partisan organisations.

Everyone makes assumptions all the time. The C of E has always made the assumption that they speak, preach and pray on behalf of everyone in England. Well they don't. This will become clearer with each passing census, if they continue to happen, and unless the C of E and other religions seek to suppress the question on religion, because they don't like the direction of travel of the answer.

 

[rutabowa]

Not sure whether or not I think it is useful to know about numbers subscribing to different religions, tbh. I certainly can't see what it's got to do with the housing market?

To know where more housing is required because population is increasing. If there was no record of population then that kind of planning could not happen until it was far too late.

Same for schools, hospitals, old peoples homes, nurseries etc etc etc etc. If those kind of places had to wait till people demanded them (like you suggest supermarkets should do for stocking e.g. halal food etc), rather than being able to predict and plan years/decades ahead, then it would be a total disaster.

 

[brogdale]

Was having a look at how the ONS propose to include the homeless in their census operation and it seems that they're offering a number of means:

• get recorded at a hostel or shelter
• where they are 'sofa-surfing'
• on their mobile phone

Which all sound reasonable, but I'd think there has to be a danger of considerable under-representation of some groups, particularly those rough sleeping.

In past census operations the ONS have sent out fieldworkers/outreach workers to contact and collate rough sleeper data but it looks as though they've abandoned that idea as too costly.

View attachment 257265

This looks like quite a bold ONS claim:

 

[brogdale]

To know where more housing is required because population is increasing. If there was no record of population then that kind of planning could not happen until it was far too late.

Same for schools, hospitals, old peoples homes, nurseries etc etc etc etc. If those kind of places had to wait till people demanded them (like you suggest supermarkets should do for stocking e.g. halal food etc), rather than being able to predict and plan years/decades ahead, then it would be a total disaster.

The religion question?

 

[rutabowa]

Wasn't aware that the Police or LAs used census data to make decisions about religious celebration permissions?

The data is used all the time, by loads of organisations. It is open. You have been using it multiple times in this thread.

 

[brogdale]

The data is used all the time, by loads of organisations. It is open. You have been using it multiple times in this thread.

Not totally convinced by this; so if I wanted to do that cross-carrying walk to church stuff at Easter in an area with a low christian count, I wouldn't be allowed? Seems potentially quite discriminatory, no?

 

[rutabowa]

Not totally convinced by this; is if I wanted to do that cross-carrying walk to church stuff in an area with a low christian count, I wouldn't be allowed? Seems potentially quite discriminatory, no?

The census data does not make decisions; people make the decisiosn. Maybe people will still make wrong decision; but they are more likely to make right decisions (ie not allowing nationalist rallies in an orthodox jewish area, was my example) if they are basing them on accurate data, rather than basing them on no data at all and just guessing/using their internal prejudices.

 

[rutabowa]

Everyone makes assumptions all the time. The C of E has always made the assumption that they speak, preach and pray on behalf of everyone in England. Well they don't. This will become clearer with each passing census, if they continue to happen, and unless the C of E and other religions seek to suppress the question on religion, because they don't like the direction of travel of the answer.

My point was: you needed the census data to make this argument. If you didn't have it, any organisation/religion could just claim any number they wanted.

 

[rutabowa]

so brogdale are you filling it in now?

 

[Pickman's model]

My point was: you needed the census data to make this argument. If you didn't have it, any organisation/religion could just claim any number they wanted.

no. no you don't. see eg Church attendance in England 2018 | Statista.

 

[brogdale]

so brogdale are you filling it in now?

Unless the state have withdrawn from their out-sourcing contract with the US defence corporation, no.

 

[rutabowa]

no. no you don't. see eg Church attendance in England 2018 | Statista.

I can't read sources for that, it costs $468 per year.

 

[brogdale]

The census data does not make decisions; people make the decisiosn. Maybe people will still make wrong decision; but they are more likely to make right decisions (ie not allowing nationalist rallies in an orthodox jewish area, was my example) if they are basing them on accurate data, rather than basing them on no data at all and just guessing/using their internal prejudices.

When the neoliberal state decides not to undertake another census in it's present form how do you think such decisions will be informed?

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't read sources for that, it costs $468 per year.

you do know what eg means, i hope. this is far from a unique source.

e2a: What is happening to Church of England attendance? | Psephizo where the author notes that each year the cofe release data on attendance

 

[belboid]

you do know what eg means, i hope. this is far from a unique source.

e2a: What is happening to Church of England attendance? | Psephizo where the author notes that each year the cofe release data on attendance

Absolutely no possibility of systemic bias or double counting there, is there?

 

[rutabowa]

you do know what eg means, i hope. this is far from a unique source.

e2a: What is happening to Church of England attendance? | Psephizo where the author notes that each year the cofe release data on attendance

My exact point was that without census data you would have to rely on data from partisan organisations. I would suggest that the CofE is an example of a partisan organisation.

Any more?

 

[rutabowa]

When the neoliberal state decides not to undertake another census in it's present form how do you think such decisions will be informed?

No idea. Facebook surveys?

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely no possibility of systemic bias or double counting there, is there?

i'm not saying the data are entirely unproblematic. the census itself isn't free from systemic bias and may include some double counting as well as some people not taking part.

 

[brogdale]

No idea. Facebook surveys?

As a non-FB user, I'd be comfortable if folk could share such data in a voluntary manner.

 

[rutabowa]

the census itself isn't free from systemic bias and may include some double counting as well as some people not taking part.

Of course, noone claimed it was perfect. Just that it is by far the biggest and most unbiased source we have.

 

[Pickman's model]

My exact point was that without census data you would have to rely on data from partisan organisations. I would suggest that the CofE is an example of a partisan organisation.

or from the ons like this one Religion by sex and age group, Great Britain, January to December 2019 - Office for National Statistics

 

[rutabowa]

As a non-FB user, I'd be comfortable if folk could share such data in a voluntary manner.

You wouldn't be comfortable when all the money for the NHS was used building 50 hospitals in a village with 200 people in, because a load of anonymous people on facebook voted for that as a joke.

 

[belboid]

i'm not saying the data are entirely unproblematic. the census itself isn't free from systemic bias and may include some double counting as well as some people not taking part.

Double counting is a very small issue for the census, they have systems built in to check on such matters (eg double checking those in halls of residence aren’t also listed at their parents, seeing if visitors have responded at their home addresses too). Should be even less of an issue this time with covid restrictions. And, unlike the CofE, they have no particular reason to exaggerate or minimise particular numbers. Vast difference.

 

[rutabowa]

or from the ons like this one Religion by sex and age group, Great Britain, January to December 2019 - Office for National Statistics

Closer, as it is a non-partisan organisation. But check the following line: "Estimates are based on a survey and are therefore subject to a margin of uncertainty. They should therefore be treated accordingly."

Maybe the ONS could occasionally do a much bigger survey, where they actually tried to talk to everyone in the country, not just a sample? Maybe they could do it once every 10 years too, so it was really easy to see changes over decades?

 

[planetgeli]

or more generally to get insight into demographics at a snapshot in time.

Exactly as I outlined in post 586.

Schools, particularly, (as you also mentioned in another post) rely heavily on the Census for prediction of when new buildings are needed.

 

[Pickman's model]

Closer, as it is a non-partisan organisation. But check the following line: "Estimates are based on a survey and are therefore subject to a margin of uncertainty. They should therefore be treated accordingly."

Maybe the ONS could occasionally do a much bigger survey, where they actually tried to talk to everyone in the country? Maybe they could do it once every 10 years too, so it was really easy to see changes over decades?

i see that they now do very limited talking to people even when they do speak to them. and probably even less this year.