Or as Owen Jones put it in The Independent only this week: "The truth is, the right has been winning the intellectual argument for 30 years."
Since the IWCA was saying precisely that - but - in the mid-1990's we can safely make that 45 years then.
And not only has the Right been winning intellectually it has (including fascism proper) been adapting strategically and tactically too.
Not only here but across Europe. This too has been evident since the mid-80's.
OK Joe, this has indeed been your position for a long, long time. But let's "deconstruct" what it means eh ?
As everyone knows, the neoliberal , unrestricted, free enterprise economic/social agenda did indeed hold sway across the world for 30 odd years or so - on the back of massive restructuring of the legal, taxation and employment structure of capitalism - and on the back of a series of seminal working class defeats, such as the 84/85 miners strike in the UK. This of course wasn't a victory or hegemony for Far Right/fascist ideology at all,far from it, as it was all about globalisation, and free, unrestricted, unregulated, labour and capital movement - the irrelevance of nation and state. This neoliberal ideology, which promise unlimited economic growth and prosperity for all, has been seen clearly by most people since the 2008 Crash and the ever worsening austerity agenda required to cover the banksters losses, to be a complete and utter FAILURE. It lies shattered as an ideology believed in by the mass of people. So much for the hegemonic neoliberal ideology of the last 30 years - its in ruins, Joe. When Owen Jones talks about this Right ideological hegemony TODAY, it's really just code for "don't expect Labour to re-embrace any of its nominally radical "Clause 4" type policies today - but PLEASE still vote for my Labour chums - they'll be a little nicer than the Tories ".
But I don't think you actually mean neoliberalist ideology when you cite the "Right winning intellectually, do you? You mean Far Right neo-fascist ideas. So what has been this innovative set of "big ideas" which have fed the undoubted Far Right advance in Europe over the last 30 years ? In fact nothing even slightly "NEW" at all, just the usual mix of petty nationalism and racism , and a smattering of nominal "anti Big Capitalism" rhetoric that's what. It certainly hit a chord of course , because neoliberal economic policy did indeed mean the drawing in of huge numbers of cheap (culturally different) migrant workers , to both feed the growth needs of capitalism. and of course undermine tradition, economistic, trades union bargaining power in the European capitalist heartlands, and unsettle established communities with their "otherness". Plenty for the neo fascists to build on there with their traditional (not in any way NEW or innovative) xenophobia,and promotion of racial hatred of incomers. This time of course the "innovation" of the Far Right was simply to substitute anti semitism for the new highly visible incomer group, ie, mainly Muslims.
Globalised capitalism of course also exported whole sectors of industry to cheaper labour markets too, thus destroying whole areas of traditional jobs across Europe. The fascist "innovative" answer to this is of course to merely emptily pontificate againsty "unpatriotic Big Business" - and propose "national autarkist" solutions, with no hope of delivering on the rhetoric. Went down well with displaced workers of course, quite understandably. Lastly of course, with their ready made, VERY traditional hatred for "Jewish Finance Capital", the neo fascists have been able to give their own fascist spin to the undoubted systemic corruption of the financial sector and the causes and consequences of the 2008 Crash
Interestingly though , from the 2008 Crash onwards, in the UK, the BNP not having reached a sustainable "critical mass" sizewise to have any impact on the UK austerity policies facing their now increasingly impoverished racist support base, has right across the BNP's previous electoral heartland, actually been exposed as empty windbags, and they have simply been abandoned by their voting base. This of course directly disproves the specific central core of your "Filling the vacuum" prognosis. For a long time you were simply in denial that the "unstoppable" BNP bandwagon had simply come off the electoral strategy rails. Mindless shitstirring against "immigrants" and "Muslims" simply hasn't been the magic key to local electoral advance for the Far Right in the UK. So what was so great and innovative that "The UK Left" had to learn from the BNP ?
So you appear to think "The Left" has a lot to learn from the Far Right, Joe ? What exactly ? I think we can all buy into the need for the Left to get more involved at local community level in the fight aganst all the aspects of Austerity. Though your simply "strange" dismissal of the existence of a "Labour Movement" perhaps tells us more about the social base and politics of the IWCA, than about the reality of the forces contributing to the anti austerity fightback across the UK today ! But you appear to be suggesting much more than this ? Are you by any chance suggesting that the "Left" needs to take some actual POLICIES from the Far Right, in order to appeal to its support base, and the working class in general ? (leaving aside for a second the HUGE issue that always intrudes when disussing this with the IWCA, ie, that the IWCA seems to think that the "Working Class" is really only the poorer, mainly White, working class living on large housing estates !) Do you think that "The Left" needs to take a leaf out of the IWCA policy handbook and actually actively campaign in local councils to STOP grants going to ethnic minority projects ? (on the pretext that this is "identity politics" and therefore "anti working class). Do you think "The Left" should be campaining against unrestricted entry to the UK for EU migrant workers ? Do you think campaigning against housing allocations to migrant workers is the way forward for "The Left". Do you think the "Left" should adopt the view that "Muslims" are especially prone to engage in child abuse/grooming, with "appropriate" policing policies in "Muslim areas" and businesses ?
I think we need to know a bit more about just what you find so "innovative" about the "policy bundle" the Far Right has been offering for the last 30 years, and exactly what you recommend the "Left" does in the hard policy area to win your approval. Mind you, I've tried to get you to answer this simple question with specifics many times before, but all we get is the same generalist stuff about "old tired thinking" on the Left, and the contrasting dynamism and innovative thinking on the Far Right. Time to step up to the plate and fill in some more detail I suggest, old buddy.
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
You might want to edit your post it is I suspect confused/confusing enough already.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no suspect needed.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
you're all over the bloody shop, ayatollah, and not least here. just because bnp votes decline doesn't mean there's not a market out there for far-right ideas, and doesn't mean those votes have gone to any sort of progressive or revolutionary force. and in barking and dagenham, as in the isle of dogs in the 1990s, the bnp vote certainly didn't fade away in 2010 despite the party losing all their seats. the bnp's message remains for many quite a seductive one, and if a better organised party started saying much the same thing without the baggage of nick griffin or his coterie then i wouldn't be surprised if they did well at the ballot box.ayatollah said:
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Perhaps the most interesting part of Ayatollah's analysis is what's missing.
No mention of what the impact of 30 odd years of right wing hegemony, of their dominance in the battle of ideas has had on the working class. On our confidence, on our social solidarity, on our communities, on the organisations reputedly on our side. (But then of course if the working class hasn't been changed then there is no need for the left to change either is there?)
No discussion of why at a time when the neo-liberal project 'is in ruins' that the left remains utterly irrelevant and its ideas (and parties) met with total indifference.
No credit for the IWCA being one of the few organisations to have attempted to address this state of affairs - intellectually through pieces on economic democracy, deglobalisation and so on; and -organisationally via highly successful pilots in working class communities proving that progressive working class politics can attract widespread support.
In view of where we are at by the way your complacent lauding of those "forces contributing to the anti austerity fightback across the UK today" points towards why if the IWCA didn't exist someone would need to invent them.
No mention of what the impact of 30 odd years of right wing hegemony, of their dominance in the battle of ideas has had on the working class. On our confidence, on our social solidarity, on our communities, on the organisations reputedly on our side. (But then of course if the working class hasn't been changed then there is no need for the left to change either is there?)
No discussion of why at a time when the neo-liberal project 'is in ruins' that the left remains utterly irrelevant and its ideas (and parties) met with total indifference.
No credit for the IWCA being one of the few organisations to have attempted to address this state of affairs - intellectually through pieces on economic democracy, deglobalisation and so on; and -organisationally via highly successful pilots in working class communities proving that progressive working class politics can attract widespread support.
In view of where we are at by the way your complacent lauding of those "forces contributing to the anti austerity fightback across the UK today" points towards why if the IWCA didn't exist someone would need to invent them.
framed
Leave it!
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
salt beef bagel. unbelievable.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
And there begins your confusion and complete misreading of past posts and analysis.
If only it were that simple.
Take his second last paragraph for example - in it he poses more than a dozen questions - many of which he then answers in a conversation with himself while peppering the texts with supporting "quotes" from IWCA supporters which he has simply made up.
From there as a result of employing this unique compound method he hugs himself in excitement (!!!) probably not dissimilar to the type of buzz you might get from cheating at Solitaire, when arriving at conclusions within kissing distance of the amusingly unhinged 'Strasserite' label tacked to the iWCA's door some time back, by a fellow traveller currently on leave of absence.
Not sure how much track there can actually be to the right of the likes of Der Sturmer but hang about a month or so for his next meticiously researched missive and I'm sure we will find out.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Dick
framed
Leave it!
It's more than apparent from your previous interventions, as well as the above insult, that your input here is diversionary and deliberately destructive.
Why not just fuck off and let the adults have their discussion?
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Turpin? Whittington? Van Dyke?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
or even 'let it lie.'
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Head
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Now you really look stupid...'why not fuck offf and let the adults have their discussion' Well thats a 'compliment' if I ever saw one. Listen go back look at your/theyre posts on here for 'pleasantries' ...and I wont bring up the RA forum 2003 will I.
OShea makes a snide remark at a time when Id made a genuine attempt to back away from all this shite, mainly for the sake of others on this thread. Which meant a decent break...maybe LiamO feels the same. But oh no he cant resist a dig ..a snipe an insult. So stop kissing his arse for a minute and have a word with him maybees. Behaviour like his, is 'dickish'. Not political.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Bring it up. You were called on this before and not too long ago either. And buckled. So don't for a moment think that because you have taken time off you can now do a re-thread on all your old smears and start afresh.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
I wish I could get it from the net as it would prove you to be the blustering fraud you are.Fucking buckled my arse. You bring up your shite I reply...it goes ping pong ping pong and it gets tiresome for a lot of people. You then re emerge because you must be feeling deprived and get it going all again. its simple really. You have a massive ego and shit politics. End of.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I think any reasonable sentient being who read the thread would disagree with you strongly on this. Do Searchlight teach their operatives how to divert discussion, smear opponents, refuse to answer simple questions and so on?
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Nearly 3 years ago now, when the very determined campaign to deter FP from publishing BTF was in full flow particularly on the Indymedia thread, I wandered over to Stormfront for some reason or other and was struck by the similarity in tone of the debates on there.
It was not just that debate was personalised in a way that will be all too familiar to veterans of Indymedia, and latterly this thread, but in some cases there was regualr use of identical phrasing. 'You vile pervert' and so on.
Now it might have been sheer coincidence.
But one thing that is certain: the tactics employed by the likes of Searchlight against their opponents on the Right are identical to the tactics employed against their opponents on the Left. Ask Larry O' Hara.
In other words if they are succesfully 'diverting discussion and smearing opponents' on Stormfront, it would be remiss of them not to be active on other forums of interest too.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Must have been a slow day today TC.....Searchlight operatives...here we go again...keep it up its......bonkers time......who needs Davey Icke
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
And Mr OShea......personalised .......are you for real...you spent over a decade attacking one man in particular in the vilest way. Yes go back 10 years ago to your very own forum and that makes Indymedia look like a Ladybird kids book. Shameful period. I think I came out of that reasonably well considering the highly personalised shite alerting the fash to my workplace and general whereabouts.....but it convinced me that you and your ilk were finished. Very suss politics. And potentially dangerous at one time...but now you have no inluence...accept it your over.
framed
Leave it!
This stinks. The above description of the thread is the complete reversal of what has actually been going on. You attribute your own tactics to your opponents and then play the victim. It's either a brilliantly thought out piece of deliberate projection, or it's seriously bonkers-in-the-nut lunacy...
I probably joined this thread about halfway through and since then I've observed with some curiosity how you have regularly used insults, smears, lies and complete irrelevancies in an attempt to derail, divert and destruct any meaningful discussion on the thread.
I asked you a while back to supply the evidence from the Red Action forum that you keep going on about after you had implied that you had hard copy print-outs of it. You have relied on the ignorance of others here to advance an argument that you can supply no evidence for, that you and Dave were the subjects of bullying tactics by Red Action members. As I recall it, most of the discussion on the forum around the No Retreat book was not dissimilar and no more or less personal than the discussion that has taken place around it on this thread. If you cannot supply the evidence that you constantly keep referencing then you have no case against JR, Demu, or anyone else. It doesn't exist and it is you and ONLY YOU who can quote from this non-existent material. Everyone else here who was a regular on the RA forum would dispute your allegations, so going simply on the weight of the evidence presented so far, you've lost mate.
Going back over some of the old stories and actions has been good on this thread imho. There's also a discussion to be had about the future of anti-fascist and working class politics in here somewhere, but you don't seem to have any interest in it. You appear to have an obsession with certain Red Action members and are determined to settle old scores in an entirely inappropriate public space like Urban.
It's embarrassing.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Why do you always play the policeman of the forum...let people speak for themselves....and whose playing the victim here.....??
For the umpteenth time of saying... the old RA forum stuff appears not to be available now...but it was until recently. The hard copy may be around but as I have mentioned on here a few months ago just before I got made redundant I had a big clear out which Redstorm, Malatesta and even LOH can attest to. And I used the industrial shredder at work to get rid off stuff and declutter. So although Ive had a little mooch about ...in between more responsible things like getting another job and looking after ill relatives, I havnt been able to come across it. If I do...fucking manna...and I would love to....quote Kevin keegan .
You know Im not bonkers even my psychiatrist knows that....but you lot can drive people towards madness. Like a cult you dig around picking up on little things then speaking for the whole forum....you believe are on your side. The RA forum circa 2003 was a shitty dirty little smear sheet that would put even Goebells to shame..or Strasser(sic) for that matter.
The discussion regards the future of anti fascism will be had but me personally wouldn't touch RA with a shitty stick. Reading the stuff you write makes my flesh creep. You appeal is to an audience already looking for the same scapegoats as the far right...seriously. Very disturbing when you get into that sort of territory.
When you roll out all this Searchlight stuff you know I parted company in 1994 in fact theres some people on here who have seen the correspondence that was around that time. If I could trust you to be discreet with it Id show you. But then youd probably say its more Searchlight dirty tricks.
This isnt a question of winning or losing..its not a fucking game nor is it about settling old scores. Its about in my case....using this forum to have a right of reply to a clique who use worn out...deeply personal and insulting methods to justify there ever decreasing influence. Its a tactic which has failed. Dont think everyone on here is behind you..Im sure I piss them off too but dont think you have a right to the moral high ground using the bonkers argument or more evident...the Searchlight slimy black ops bollox.
I cant really get away from this but whenever I do ...to concentrate on matters that are more pressing..tell Joe that he needs to maybe do the same...his almost pathological baiting of me is perhaps the most sad part of this sorry affair.
I'll take that utterly pathetic , intellectually barren, response as yet another "No" then. As in "No, we're not prepared to be up front about what is in our opinion so "innovative" about Far Right policy and analysis ". A really, really, piss poor and all too predictable "reply" by you and your little support group coterie of cronies, Joe.
Nothing confused or confusing at all of course about my earlier post, or the questions repeatedly asked of you and your usual IWCA cronies. I, and many others, have repeatedly asked you and your chums, across many Urban threads, to be specific about what actual hard POLICIES contained within either the Neoliberal, or Far Right neo fascist, analysis and agendas ,you recommend the Left should adopt to match the Right's claimed" dynamism", re your apparent approval of the ghastly self serving opportunist Labourite reformist , Owen Jones', claim that :
"the Right been winning intellectually it has (including fascism proper) been adapting strategically and tactically too".
The reply is always silence. So once again none of the (undeclared) IWCA co-thinkers/mutual support group posters , are prepared to be honestly up front with their current day politics, by getting down to the nitty gritty of what "dynamic, innovative, Far Right policies and strategies" they think the "Left" would have to adopt "on the local community landings" and in the local electoral struggle, to win the approval of themselves, and you suggest, the "working class".
I'm not surprised you aren't prepared to go beyond generalities , because the implications of your continual lauding of the , entirely bogus, claimed "innovation" of "the Right" are very distasteful indeed - essentially involving a recommendation to the left to make a wide range of concessions to the petty racism and cultural chauvinism prevalent in sections of the white working class, behind a self-justifying smokescreen of support for " real pro working class politics" as against the dishonest "straw man" euphemisms of "multiculturalism" or "identity politics".
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
Ayatollah - do you think the right haven't been winning intellectually (and practically for that matter)? Or am I misreading you?
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
First off IWCA supporters have been on this forum for a over a decade and as far as I'm aware are yet to duck a question yet. Secondly many of the people who support the iWCA strategy on here are not known to each other at all. To suggest otherwise is to feed off or into the 'clique' argument promoted by Purbick/Tilzey which is the road to madness.
Thirdly, while it does seem rather odd to have to offer such a rebuttal after all this time, the reality is no one associated with the IWCA has ever recomended the Left 'adopt' neo liberal or neo-fascist agendas - what the IWCA has said ad nauseam, is that their is a responsibility to offer a progressive alternative to them in working class communities.
Failure to do that means either backing Labour (Hope not Hate/UAF) or allowing the far-right a free run.
What is so difficult about that you are apparently unable to grasp?
Perhaps the key to your wilful confusion is that you seem unable to detach any objective analysis of a political opponent such as the BNP or UKIP from approval of them.
For example because I quoted Owen Jones (the quote you attribute to Owen Jones is actually from me btw)
you assume I approve of his politics when in fact all I approve of his public acknowledgment of someting the IWCA itself came to terms with almost two decades earlier.
To me that is a sign others are catching up.
Simple as that.
Finally it is not actually the 'petty prejudices and cultural chavunism of the white working class" that is preventing progress but rather the "petty prejudices and cultural chavunism" demonstrated by the Left in general toward the entire working class - the fear of political contamination - of which you are an exemplar, which is the bigger barrier to any serious strategic review.
framed
Leave it!
You constantly play the victim here Steve, it's always about you and what the bad boys from Red Action are alleged to have done to you and Dave, but please go right ahead and continue to say whatever you like mate. IMHO you are only embarrassing yourself when you resort to insults, lies and smears rather than rational debate, it's exactly the same tactic that you continually accuse Red Action members of using. It's not about policing the discussion, but if you can't take a bit of friendly and well meant advice when you go off on one, so be it. Carry on regardless.
Keegan didn't emerge from that episode with any particular honour though, did he? As I said, I don't recall the discussion on the old RA forum as being any sharper, or any more personalised than the debate here. In fact, the RA forum was more strictly moderated than Urban and I'd say that it was actually less vitriolic and abusive than some of the stuff that I've read on here and before that on Indymedia.
Can you cite any other threads or articles from the old RA forum, or even the new Red Action site - aside from anything about No Retreat - that would back up your contention that, "The RA forum circa 2003 was a shitty dirty little smear sheet that would put even Goebells to shame..or Strasser(sic) for that matter." ? I can assure you that you're not the only one looking for 'manna from heaven' from the old RA forum. I have been trying everything I know technically to recover the database of the RA forum, or at least a cache of it, because I believe that your various allegations would be disproven were it to be recovered.
Again, I would ask you to provide evidence rather than personal opinion to back up the above allegations.
More assumptions. No, I didn't know that you parted company with Searchlight in 1994, but as you've said it enough times on this thread I certainly know now. It's something else that we'll have to take your word on... It's not necessary to provide personal letters imho, but some general pointers as to your reasons for the disassociation might be helpful. Like others, I always assumed that you were rock solid with Searchlight, so what precisely was it that led to your disaffection?
If you use an open forum as a 'right of reply' then it's fairly inevitable that your version of events will continue to be challenged... and so it goes on. As I said before, there's no end to it, but you seem quite happy with the arrangement. In fact, you appear to thrive on it. That's why I used the 'you've lost mate' phrase, because from what I can see you have locked yourself into a 'game' here that is unwinnable without the necessary evidence to back it up.
Joe, stop being a pathological baiter please.
There, done it. 
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
You constantly play the victim here Steve, it's always about you and what the bad boys from Red Action are alleged to have done to you and Dave, but please go right ahead and continue to say whatever you like mate. IMHO you are only embarrassing yourself when you resort to insults, lies and smears rather than rational debate, it's exactly the same tactic that you continually accuse Red Action members of using. It's not about policing the discussion, but if you can't take a bit of friendly and well meant advice when you go off on one, so be it. Carry on regardless.
Keegan didn't emerge from that episode with any particular honour though, did he? As I said, I don't recall the discussion on the old RA forum as being any sharper, or any more personalised than the debate here. In fact, the RA forum was more strictly moderated than Urban and I'd say that it was actually less vitriolic and abusive than some of the stuff that I've read on here and before that on Indymedia.
Can you cite any other threads or articles from the old RA forum, or even the new Red Action site - aside from anything about No Retreat - that would back up your contention that, "The RA forum circa 2003 was a shitty dirty little smear sheet that would put even Goebells to shame..or Strasser(sic) for that matter." ? I can assure you that you're not the only one looking for 'manna from heaven' from the old RA forum. I have been trying everything I know technically to recover the database of the RA forum, or at least a cache of it, because I believe that your various allegations would be disproven were it to be recovered.
Again, I would ask you to provide evidence rather than personal opinion to back up the above allegations.
More assumptions. No, I didn't know that you parted company with Searchlight in 1994, but as you've said it enough times on this thread I certainly know now. It's something else that we'll have to take your word on... It's not necessary to provide personal letters imho, but some general pointers as to your reasons for the disassociation might be helpful. Like others, I always assumed that you were rock solid with Searchlight, so what precisely was it that led to your disaffection?
If you use an open forum as a 'right of reply' then it's fairly inevitable that your version of events will continue to be challenged... and so it goes on. As I said before, there's no end to it, but you seem quite happy with the arrangement. In fact, you appear to thrive on it. That's why I used the 'you've lost mate' phrase, because from what I can see you have locked yourself into a 'game' here that is unwinnable without the necessary evidence to back it up.
Joe, stop being a pathological baiter please.
bignose1
Searchlight Spoiler
Utter babble...answer the guy ffs
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