Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[Puddy_Tat]

Just to give you some idea of what's worked for me, I answer the basic questions (in terms of the tick boxes), then add (in the "tell us more" section) "please see additional sheet #...", and give them chapter and verse on the additional sheet. I do this for every section of the form that requires it. It's a fair bit of extra work, but it allows you to inject some nuance. You should also aim to note what you're capable of as what you're able to do on your WORST day, not your best or your average day (despite what they ask). Also, try to write from the POV of "what I'm unable to do, unless", rather than "I can sometimes do that, but..." as they'll only pay attention to "I can do that".

Also, w/r/t walking, I always put exactly what's up - that I can't walk at all without pain, and that the pain (and the additional fatigue that the pain causes) gets worse (and more fatiguing) the more I walk. I then put down my worst time and distance. I don't mention what I can do on a good day, because they will automatically apply that to ALL your days.

Only thing with this, is there a risk that some snooper will then watch you on a (possibly quite rare) 'not so bad day' and you get done for 'fraud'? (or that some cunt of a neighbour will shop you)?

Some time ago (we've lost contact now so I don't know how he's doing in the ATOS era) I had a friend who had a condition where he could occasionally walk unaided (although not often and not for very long), often used a walking stick, sometimes used a wheelchair, and on some days could not move at all and was on so much morphine that he really didn't know what the fuck was going on. I think he had some bother about it a few years back.

The system does not seem able to cope with variable conditions at all. And as I've said before, the prevailing attitude seems to be that you' shouldn't get benefits unless you're 100% sick / disabled, but you shouldn't get / keep a job if you're anything less than 100% well. Which leaves a lot of people in no-person's land.

(and incidentally, cross posting from another thread - don't have a heart attack during your ATOS medical - you are likely to get sanctioned for 'withdrawing from the assessment'. more here)

I really have run out of swear words for this lot.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Well I thought it was all going great until I reached the mental section....

How on earth do I get across issues to do with 'brain fog' and inability to concentrate which is caused by ME?

 

[purenarcotic]

You can say that the inability to concentrate means that thinking logically and clearly can be difficult which means that simple tasks such as filling out forms etc takes longer and is more difficult.

Does your friend find finding the 'right word' difficult too? That will have an impact on their ability to be understood properly which can obviously cause problems.

 

[equationgirl]

Paging Greebo ViolentPanda

 

[Greebo]

Well I thought it was all going great until I reached the mental section....

How on earth do I get across issues to do with 'brain fog' and inability to concentrate which is caused by ME?

With difficulty and repetition,
Doc Carrot Doc Carrot,
With difficulty and repetition,
Doc Carrot, repetition.

More seriously, think about a normal activity eg answering the phone at home and how difficult that is unless the PWME (person with ME) has no background noise, nobody moving around them as they take the call, and are not attempting any other activity (not even checking a diary or noting down the details of the call) at the same time.

I'm sure VP can fill in a few more of the gaps for you.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

You can say that the inability to concentrate means that thinking logically and clearly can be difficult which means that simple tasks such as filling out forms etc takes longer and is more difficult.

Does your friend find finding the 'right word' difficult too? That will have an impact on their ability to be understood properly which can obviously cause problems.

Thanks. I've covered this in the physical section though.

I personally think a lot of the questions don't reply and she kind of agrees but I don't wanna put words in her mouth. I know everyone's different but was just wondering if anyone here has, or has done forms, for people with ME and how they tackled it?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well I thought it was all going great until I reached the mental section....

How on earth do I get across issues to do with 'brain fog' and inability to concentrate which is caused by ME?

The way I tend to describe it is "cognitive difficulties", of which a form of aphasia/word blindness is often a component, and which becomes more prevalent, the greater the degree of fatigue/pain/weakness being experienced by the sufferer.
Last time I was interviewed for a DLA renewal by an EMP (Examining Medical Practitioner), I described "brainfog" to her as (I'm paraphrasing, obviously!) "imagine you're trying to convey the concept 'window' to someone, without remembering that the word 'window' exists. You may end up pointing to a window and saying 'that thing', but your ability to think clearly is so compromised that you're unable to connect the concept to the word. Add to that a compromised short-term memory due to the same pain/fatigue/weakness, and the fact that your senses often go haywire/over-sensitive and feed you what feels like far too much input, even if the input is at a normal level, and doing simple stuff like making a phonecall or answering one can become a physical and mental obstacle course".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Only thing with this, is there a risk that some snooper will then watch you on a (possibly quite rare) 'not so bad day' and you get done for 'fraud'? (or that some cunt of a neighbour will shop you)?

Some time ago (we've lost contact now so I don't know how he's doing in the ATOS era) I had a friend who had a condition where he could occasionally walk unaided (although not often and not for very long), often used a walking stick, sometimes used a wheelchair, and on some days could not move at all and was on so much morphine that he really didn't know what the fuck was going on. I think he had some bother about it a few years back.

The system does not seem able to cope with variable conditions at all. And as I've said before, the prevailing attitude seems to be that you' shouldn't get benefits unless you're 100% sick / disabled, but you shouldn't get / keep a job if you're anything less than 100% well. Which leaves a lot of people in no-person's land.

(and incidentally, cross posting from another thread - don't have a heart attack during your ATOS medical - you are likely to get sanctioned for 'withdrawing from the assessment'. more here)

I really have run out of swear words for this lot.

"Some neighbour" tried to shop me.
"Fortunately" for me, I'm moderately severely-affected and have several other health problems (incl. leg and back damage), so getting out and about isn't something I'm able to do much, unless it involves going to my GP surgery, or attending a hospital appt. If Doctor Carrot's friend is as ill as she sounds, she'll have a similar problem getting out and about, even if she lives somewhere accessible.

You're absolutely right, though, about the system (or rather ATOS's wanky software) being unable to cope with variable conditions. It's also pisspoor at coping with the idea of multiple conditions, let alone how multiple conditions can synergise into a sickness/disability sum that's greater than its component parts.
This is why I advocate to anyone filling in forms for sickness/disabilities benefits to load their forms down with detail. The more you send them, the smaller the leeway an adjudication officer has to put you on the list for an ATOS assessment.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> This is why I advocate to anyone filling in forms for sickness/disabilities benefits to load their forms down with detail. The more you send them, the smaller the leeway an adjudication officer has to put you on the list for an ATOS assessment.

As many on this thread and elsewhere will confirm, repeatedly adding this level of detail (on extra sheets, whenever necessary) is a long and cheerless task, but it pays off.

 

[equationgirl]

As many on this thread and elsewhere will confirm, repeatedly adding this level of detail (on extra sheets, whenever necessary) is a long and cheerless task, but it pays off.

Couldn't agree more with this post and the esteemed Mr Panda's above - drown them in detail. They want information, they'll get information. More than they know what to do with.

They rely on you meekly ticking the boxes (for a form already known not to work with questions that are stacked against anyone with a variable chronic condition), so that the information can be fed into the crappest most expensive software that the taxpayer could rent, all to obtain ridiculous decisions based on sand.

If you haven't already, make sure you request a home visit for your friend, and ask for it to be recorded. Be prepared to phone up a couple of times before the date to confirm that it is booked as a home visit and that recording equipment has also been booked. If a home visit is booked, make sure someone can take notes on behalf of your friend and can act as an observer.

Is she on any meds?

Also, send the form back recorded/signed for delivery so that you know they have received it, and make sure a copy is made before it is sent back.

 

[Greebo]

<snip> Be prepared to phone up a couple of times before the date to confirm that it is booked as a home visit and that recording equipment has also been booked. If a home visit is booked, make sure someone can take notes on behalf of your friend and can act as an observer. <snip>

IMHO recordings and having somebody there (as a witness/chaperone/advocate) should be standard practice with anybody who is potentially vulnerable due to ill health or disability, but this goes in spades for anyone with a memory problem or who becomes easily confused or upset when under pressure.

 

[equationgirl]

IMHO recordings and having somebody there (as a witness/chaperone/advocate) should be standard practice with anybody who is potentially vulnerable due to ill health or disability, but this goes in spades for anyone with a memory problem or who becomes easily confused or upset when under pressure.

In all honesty, this sort of thing should be done as standard for everyone. But that would cost money and we can't be having that. All the budget has been blown on crap software.

 

[purenarcotic]

Thanks. I've covered this in the physical section though.

I personally think a lot of the questions don't reply and she kind of agrees but I don't wanna put words in her mouth. I know everyone's different but was just wondering if anyone here has, or has done forms, for people with ME and how they tackled it?

Don't worry about repeating yourself, the more you ram the point home the better.

 

[Greebo]

Don't worry about repeating yourself, the more you ram the point home the better.

Word.

Anyway, a lot of M.E.'s effects are both physical and mental at the same time: If physically fatigued, it's difficult to think straight or remember things; if upset, worn out, or under stress, physical coordination and physical strength worsen quite noticeably.

 

[existentialist]

In all honesty, this sort of thing should be done as standard for everyone. But that would cost money and we can't be having that. All the budget has been blown on crap software.

I think we need to recognise that the "crap software" is actually Very Good software, in that it achieves *exactly* what the DWP is setting out to do - disqualify entitled people from benefits.

 

[StoneRoad]

I think we need to recognise that the "crap software" is actually Very Good software, in that it achieves *exactly* what the DWP is setting out to do - disqualify entitled people from benefits.

And so clever, too; it avoids the real culprits having to admit their guilt. /cynic mode

 

[CNT36]

Talked to someone at work yesterday who is in from an agency. He hurt his back and a Doctor misdiagnosed it as more serious than it was. He took time off work started getting better went back and the original diagnosis was rectified. In the mean time ATOS got involved and refused to let him return to work. He was fired from his full time job and quickly replaced by someone on a three month contract. He got Doctors letters that explained everything but the management said it was to late and he'd already been replaced. He contacted ATOS who said there was nothing he could do and he had been out of work since apart from a short contract and more recent agency work. He got moved on to JSA got the short term contract but when he finished was told he couldn't have JSA anymore as his wife's cleaning job paid too much. He'd loved his job and ATOS screwed him out of it.

 

[Awesome Wells]

I think we need to recognise that the "crap software" is actually Very Good software, in that it achieves *exactly* what the DWP is setting out to do - disqualify entitled people from benefits.

Maybe, but software is never going to replace caring and compassionate diagnostic work and that can only come from a human being. Ticking boxes is a very poor substitute, as we all know.

 

[Frances Lengel]

more an ESA question than atos, but thought I'd bung it here

the friend I've mentioned once or twice has been offered a part time (may be up to 30 hours a week) job.

obviously he's going to 'sign off' ESA (and I've suggested working tax credits) - but has some concerns

a) will the fact he's taken a job be held against him if it doesn't work out and he has to go back on to ESA?

b) is there a 'rapid reclaim' system, or will he have to go through all the atos shit again? (although to be honest, he must be about due a review)

He's been in the 'support group', and job is something he's found, not something that has been suggested through any work programme / adviser

When it was incapacity benefit, the answer was no. Both employee and enployer had a 6 month window to say "Nah, this aint working oout -let's call it a no fault divorce". And the claimainnt could go back to the original level of claim. Fuck knows how that works with esa though.

Allmpowere to you though.

 

[equationgirl]

Talked to someone at work yesterday who is in from an agency. He hurt his back and a Doctor misdiagnosed it as more serious than it was. He took time off work started getting better went back and the original diagnosis was rectified. In the mean time ATOS got involved and refused to let him return to work. He was fired from his full time job and quickly replaced by someone on a three month contract. He got Doctors letters that explained everything but the management said it was to late and he'd already been replaced. He contacted ATOS who said there was nothing he could do and he had been out of work since apart from a short contract and more recent agency work. He got moved on to JSA got the short term contract but when he finished was told he couldn't have JSA anymore as his wife's cleaning job paid too much. He'd loved his job and ATOS screwed him out of it.

Why did ATOS refuse to let him return to work? Seems to be their main aim!

 

[equationgirl]

Maybe, but software is never going to replace caring and compassionate diagnostic work and that can only come from a human being. Ticking boxes is a very poor substitute, as we all know.

Never mind caring and compassionate, it's not even vaguely accurate!

 

[Awesome Wells]

Never mind caring and compassionate, it's not even vaguely accurate!

Of course not. The whole thing is so ridiculous it would be funny if it wasn't so desperately tragic and if it didn't have such a devastating effect on real people. Quote why the medical profession has allowed itself to be disenfranchised and raduced by the government I don't know. The word of a doctor, perhas with supporting evidence from a specialist, should be more than enough. Taking the matter out the hands of the patient's doctor/specialists is pernicious to say the least, and of course expensive.

Plus the receptionist at the local ATOS gulag is a right mardy cow!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why did ATOS refuse to let him return to work? Seems to be their main aim!

You forget that besides doing "assessments" for the DWP, ATOS also provide workplace health/occupational therapy services for many large companies. There have been aseries of stories in the press about people who've been put into medical retirement due to the ATOSsers, only to be denied ESA by another ATOSser.

 

[CNT36]

You forget that besides doing "assessments" for the DWP, ATOS also provide workplace health/occupational therapy services for many large companies. There have been aseries of stories in the press about people who've been put into medical retirement due to the ATOSsers, only to be denied ESA by another ATOSser.

I didn't want to push him for too much information but from what he said it was such a service. He was told if he couldn't do certain things then he could fuck off. It just happened to fit with the companies pattern of getting rid of a full timers (this one with 20+ years on the job) with people on short term contracts.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I didn't want to push him for too much information but from what he said it was such a service. He was told if he couldn't do certain things then he could fuck off. It just happened to fit with the companies pattern of getting rid of a full timers (this one with 20+ years on the job) with people on short term contracts.

Has he taken legal advice as to whether his dismissal was sound?

 

[CNT36]

Has he taken legal advice as to whether his dismissal was sound?

I don't think so. I didn't really want to ask too many questions as I don't know him very well.

 

[equationgirl]

You forget that besides doing "assessments" for the DWP, ATOS also provide workplace health/occupational therapy services for many large companies. There have been aseries of stories in the press about people who've been put into medical retirement due to the ATOSsers, only to be denied ESA by another ATOSser.

I did forget that, thanks for reminding me.

Wankers.

 

[equationgirl]

Has he taken legal advice as to whether his dismissal was sound?

From that little bit of information is sounds very dodgy - there also been recent case law which has underlined more what an employer's responsibilities are towards dismissing those with a chronic condition. The case law summary was very clear that an employer can obtain a third party medical report but should not just rely upon it without question.
http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ac217788-db1e-4f68-9292-e69d38a72fbe

 

[equationgirl]

I don't think so. I didn't really want to ask too many questions as I don't know him very well.

Tell him about us

 

[CNT36]

Tell him about us

I might do if he comes back. Might wait until a few pages have passed as I don't really want him (or anyone at work) knowing my online shenanigans as I've put quite personal stuff on this thread and others over the years.

If any of you have any information I could give him in the meantime on where he stands legally it would be appreciated.