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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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LLETSA said:
On the whole, speaking of today's society, tattoos=empty head.
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How you're managing to intellectualise your comments is indeed a talent you excel at. Some people like tattoos some don't, it's no more than that. That you need to tell others about your own personal antipathy towards tattoos says more about your own cupboard hole impotence than it does anything else...
 
Fedayn said:
How you're managing to intellectualise your comments is indeed a talent you excel at. Some people like tattoos some don't, it's no more than that. That you need to tell others about your own personal antipathy towards tattoos says more about your own cupboard hole impotence than it does anything else...
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Yes, but there is no doubt that it's grown as a phenomenon over the past few years to the extent that whatever it was supposed to signify has now been totally lost, just like everything 'edgy' or 'alternative' gets lost when it becomes big business. Like I say, now that the middle-aged assistant bank manager has a tattoo peeping over her waistband it's a badge of conformism. And the wrinkly sixty year-old in Asda has a tattoo on her neck. Ten years ago she'd have been wearing pearl earrings instead, and rightly so-she's someone's granny. You don't want your granny with a neck tattoo.

I didn't used to mind tattoos when they were fairly discreet, but it's really come to something when you can walk down the street behind some bald, pot-bellied bloke in shorts who has one arm and both legs entirely covered by pictures you couldn't make out even if you studied him all afternoon. Not that you'd want to-he's hideous.
 
LLETSA said:
Yes, but there is no doubt that it's grown as a phenomenon over the past few years to the extent that whatever it was supposed to signify has now been totally lost, just like everything 'edgy' or 'alternative' gets lost when it becomes big business. Like I say, now that the middle-aged assistant bank manager has a tattoo peeping over her waistband it's a badge of conformism. And the wrinkly sixty year-old in Asda has a tattoo on her neck. Ten years ago she'd have been wearing pearl earrings instead, and rightly so-she's someone's granny. You don't want your granny with a neck tattoo.

I didn't used to mind tattoos when they were fairly discreet, but it's really come to something when you can walk down the street behind some bald, pot-bellied bloke in shorts who has one arm and both legs entirely covered by pictures you couldn't make out even if you studied him all afternoon. Not that you'd want to-he's hideous.
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In the UK historically those with tattoos have overwhelmingly been working-class. That people with tattoos were looked at in the same way the ruling-class eugenicists used to look at skull shape, criminality and class says plenty.

But it doesn't matter frankly. So what if people like tattoos, you don't like them, grand, don't get one done. There's no need to vent about it, it's not exactly up there with anything important is it?

Both my grannies are dead, that said i'd rather have a granny with a tattoo who was a decent person than one without who was a twat.
 
Orang Utan said:
I'm a fan of literary tattoos. I might get an Orwell one to piss LLETSA off
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How about this one from Victor Pelevin's The Life Of Insects.
"What's that tattoo he has?" Sam asked softly, when his eyes had adjusted to the semidarkness. "I get the point of Lenin and Stalin, but whys he got OKWIFIP written underneath? Is it a name?"

"No," said Arthur, "it's an abbreviation. Our Kids Will Fix the Pigs."
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Fedayn said:
In the UK historically those with tattoos have overwhelmingly been working-class. That people with tattoos were looked at in the same way the ruling-class eugenicists used to look at skull shape, criminality and class says plenty.

But it doesn't matter frankly. So what if people like tattoos, you don't like them, grand, don't get one done. There's no need to vent about it, it's not exactly up there with anything important is it?

Both my grannies are dead, that said i'd rather have a granny with a tattoo who was a decent person than one without who was a twat.
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That people with tattoos have been historically working class is neither here nor there in terms of what we're talking about. Now it's a fashion-driven thing, common to working class and middle class alike. And, for all I know, members of the upper class as well. And it is important-like I said, it's a sign of something going on in society: a high number of people have suddenly decided to start hideously disfiguring themselves. Why? What goes on in the mind of grown adults, never previously members of any kind of sub-culture, who decide, out of the blue, to have a stupid indelible picture painted on a limb (or several), or on parts of their torsos?

And what happened to the days when grannies could be grannies?

All of this is linked to the widespread terror of growing old.
 
_angel_ said:
I just don't get the obsession with this girl tbf.
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She's kind of an exemplar for a lot of things that are wrong with the mainstream media, as was/is Johann Hari - she's part of a relative elite prescribing solutions for the masses, and using her "activist" credentials (as Hari occasionally used his sexuality) as some kind of badge that innoculates her against any form of criticism. She also doesn't manifest any self-awareness with reference to her being part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
 
Fedayn said:
How you're managing to intellectualise your comments is indeed a talent you excel at. Some people like tattoos some don't, it's no more than that. That you need to tell others about your own personal antipathy towards tattoos says more about your own cupboard hole impotence than it does anything else...
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That's harsh. We don't know that LLETSA wasn't maliciously tattooed at some time in the past.

Actually, that's making me smile. Bad panda!
 
LLETSA said:
That people with tattoos have been historically working class is neither here nor there in terms of what we're talking about. Now it's a fashion-driven thing, common to working class and middle class alike. And, for all I know, members of the upper class as well. And it is important-like I said, it's a sign of something going on in society: a high number of people have suddenly decided to start hideously disfiguring themselves. Why? What goes on in the mind of grown adults, never previously members of any kind of sub-culture, who decide, out of the blue, to have a stupid indelible picture painted on a limb (or several), or on parts of their torsos?

And what happened to the days when grannies could be grannies?

All of this is linked to the widespread terror of growing old.
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It is entirely pertinent, because you're own personal prejudice is directed at ordinary people who have done nothing more than have a tattoo. it's not an issue of any more importance than your preferred jam on your breakfast toast.Stop worrying about silly little things. When you see a tattoo do you mutter to yourself with that knowing grin of how they have transgressed so terribly, confident in your own victory in your own internal monologue?

So middle-class people want to appear 'rough' who cares? That's their problem, why you give a fuck is beyond me.

So, a granny with a tattoo can't be just a granny? What gibberish.

People get tattoos, they grow old, so what?! It sounds very much to me of yet another sign of your own impotent rage against anything that doesn't conform with your own narrow view of 'right' and proper. Calm down, you'll have a heart attack if you're not careful.
 
'Between Equal Rights' is worth your time, butchers once told me who he draws on for this piece but it's a pretty solid description of the nature of international 'law'


and VP, wash your mouth out- he write non feudalist-lite fantasy oft lumped in with 'steampunk' and 'the new weird'

those genre labels should be wanky enough to make lletsa shit a brick
 
imposs1904 said:
Isn't he another posho? How come he doesn't get a shoeing on the boards?
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he stood for the swappies somewhere once. He's thrown himself under the bus for his principles there- who has penny ever stood for except her own bank balance and media adoration?
 
Fedayn said:
it is entirely pertinent, because you're own personal prejudice is dircted at ordinary people who have done nothing more than have a tattoo. it's not an issue of any more importance than your preferred jam on your breakfast toast.Stop worrying about silly little things.

So middle-class people want to appear 'rough' who cares? That's their problem, why you give a fuck is beyond me.

So, a granny with a tattoo can't be just a granny? What gibberish.

People get tattoos, they grow old, so what?! It sounds very much to me of yet another sign of your own impotent rage against anything that doesn't conform with your own narrow view of 'right' and proper. Calm down, you'll have a heart attack if you're not careful.
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I'm not actually angry about any of this. :D You seem to be the one getting aeriated.

It is an issue of wider significance. What does it say about a society where even those old enough to know better get themselves tattooed just because some vacuous celebrity gets tattooed? More interesting, what makes them think that the kind of heavy tattooing common today looks good? Like I said, from a distance it looks as if they've been badly scarred in some kind of unfortunate accident. And the related issue of piercings: why do young girls so pretty that they've already won in the fucking lottery of life voluntarily pay for somebody to add horrible blemishes to their near-perfect facial features?

No, a granny with a neck tattoo is not merely a granny-she's a granny with a neck tattoo and thus symptomatic of a society losing its grip.
 
everybody who stands for election is attention seeking no matter how principled they are. You don't get chivvied into these roles with a sigh of exasperation on your face- and yes you may believe everything you say and want the office to pursue honest aims- but name me 6 introvert shy retiring types who suddenly found themselves elected after someone badgered them into standing?
 
LLETSA said:
That people with tattoos have been historically working class is neither here nor there in terms of what we're talking about. Now it's a fashion-driven thing, common to working class and middle class alike. And, for all I know, members of the upper class as well. And it is important-like I said, it's a sign of something going on in society: a high number of people have suddenly decided to start hideously disfiguring themselves. Why? What goes on in the mind of grown adults, never previously members of any kind of sub-culture, who decide, out of the blue, to have a stupid indelible picture painted on a limb (or several), or on parts of their torsos?
Click to expand...

You're conflating the transient phenomenon of fashionability with the rather more permanent phenomenon of subcultural identification, so yes, you have some people being tattooed (and often having the tattoo removed a few years later. It's an ever-expanding business) for reasons of fashion, but you also have some people being tattooed for the same reason their forebears might have - to mark membership of a group, to illustrate places you've been or things you've seen.

And what happened to the days when grannies could be grannies?
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They still can and still are. Participating in fashion doesn't change that.

All of this is linked to the widespread terror of growing old.
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Really? Anything to substantiate this claim, or is this another of your "I know what I know" statements?
 
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