Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[andysays]

Whiteman - worst superhero ever.

White/jewish woman, actually - check your super-hero stereotyping

 

[andysays]

It's all simple, Stop doing what you're doing - go elsewhere and stop worrying about being where the next artists hang out is (this is stuff that you do voluntarily, the gentrification stuff). Stop looking at yourself and others in racialised terms. Try and understand how in the US race is a a refraction of class ('racecraft'). Talk to normal people. Stop thinking about yourself.

In an attempt to be fair to the author, she does appear to be attempting to talk to normal people, and she does appear to have at least some insight into her position.

She's probably bang to rights on the gentrification stuff, but it would be even more a manifestation of privilege if she simply upped and went elsewhere to somewhere she wouldn't have a similar experience. Similarly, it takes a lot of thought and experience for most people to stop looking at self and others in racialised terms.

Her initial reaction seems to be overly emotional and thinking about herself, but maybe there's a possibility she can move beyond this. There's nothing in particular in her piece to suggest this, but who knows...

 

[The39thStep]

In an attempt to be fair to the author, she does appear to be attempting to talk to normal people, and she does appear to have at least some insight into her position.

She's probably bang to rights on the gentrification stuff, but it would be even more a manifestation of privilege if she simply upped and went elsewhere to somewhere she wouldn't have a similar experience. Similarly, it takes a lot of thought and experience for most people to stop looking at self and others in racialised terms.

Her initial reaction seems to be overly emotional and thinking about herself, but maybe there's a possibility she can move beyond this. There's nothing in particular in her piece to suggest this, but who knows...

 

[andysays]

Yeah, probably .

 

[The Pale King]

"On a recent Saturday morning, I left my Bushwick apartment in yellow galoshes and a black raincoat, my red umbrella tucked under my elbow, my yoga mat swung over my shoulder."




"While I acknowledge the many manifestations of my white privilege and care deeply about creating an equitable society, I continually confront the paradox of being both the oppressor (white) and the oppressed (Jewish)."

Is it really so binary? Is it really so dificult 'confronting this paradox'?

"I have pondered, investigated and deconstructed my own social identity as both white and Jewish for years."

She should get out more

"when all I have to do is close a door to make it seem like I am bulldozing an entire city? Simply by being white, I am aware that I trigger other people’s pain."

Intersectionalists don't have a theory of power, or at least not a good one. It leads them to personalise political arguments and self-dramatise relentlessly. Politics becomes internal, about techniques of the self.

"Maybe it was the fact that I had intentionally closed the door — not because he was Latino, but because he was a stranger, and no matter how socially aware I strive to be, no matter how hard I work to negotiate my white privilege and unpack my simultaneous identity as the oppressor and the oppressed, there is still an impulse, deep inside, to overlook a stranger in the doorway.
Sometimes, negotiating this often juxtaposed, yet simultaneous sense of self, that’s how I feel inside: a stranger in the doorway, not sure which identity is in, not sure which identity is out."

She can never unpack her identity enough. She can never eradicate the impulses. Is it just me or does this stuff sound more theological than political? And so solipsistic. Remember the whites still have the power...to make things better... by treating the locals better! Whites are still the centre of this story, the active subjects.

 

[DotCommunist]

"On a recent Saturday morning, I left my Bushwick apartment in yellow galoshes and a black raincoat, my red umbrella tucked under my elbow, my yoga mat swung over my shoulder."




"While I acknowledge the many manifestations of my white privilege and care deeply about creating an equitable society, I continually confront the paradox of being both the oppressor (white) and the oppressed (Jewish)."

Is it really so binary? Is it really so dificult 'confronting this paradox'?

"I have pondered, investigated and deconstructed my own social identity as both white and Jewish for years."

She should get out more

"when all I have to do is close a door to make it seem like I am bulldozing an entire city? Simply by being white, I am aware that I trigger other people’s pain."

Intersectionalists don't have a theory of power, or at least not a good one. It leads them to personalise political arguments and self-dramatise relentlessly. Politics becomes internal, about techniques of the self.

"Maybe it was the fact that I had intentionally closed the door — not because he was Latino, but because he was a stranger, and no matter how socially aware I strive to be, no matter how hard I work to negotiate my white privilege and unpack my simultaneous identity as the oppressor and the oppressed, there is still an impulse, deep inside, to overlook a stranger in the doorway.
Sometimes, negotiating this often juxtaposed, yet simultaneous sense of self, that’s how I feel inside: a stranger in the doorway, not sure which identity is in, not sure which identity is out."

She can never unpack her identity enough. She can never eradicate the impulses. Is it just me or does this stuff sound more theological than political? And so solipsistic. Remember the whites still have the power...to make things better... by treating the locals better! Whites are still the centre of this story, the active subjects.

I was saying to frog that this attempt to 'empathise' or 'recognize' the power imbalances through the prism of intersectionalty leads to an almost insulting noble-savage type concern. And yes thats massively solipsistic.

the paper seller doesn't even warrant a name! a sidepiece in her own drama

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah but, people don't think or act like that in reality - are we just identifying idiots or are we saying this stuff had some social weight? We're way off course here. Find an idiot and laugh at them is not what this is about is it?

 

[DotCommunist]

how much social weight does it have? Outside of campus politics and the bubble- where is its impact? Apart from annoying me?

Some on this very thread have mentioned how its poisoning uni politics but outside of that?

 

[butchersapron]

how much social weight does it have? Outside of campus politics and the bubble- where is its impact? Apart from annoying me?

Some on this very thread have mentioned how its poisoning uni politics but outside of that?

People who go on to make your life hell in official positions and who can mobilise to freeze out people in academia - people who go on to plan the state and capital, this time along open diverse lines in the Long term People who make their guilt your issue in the short term.

 

[The39thStep]

People who go on to make your life hell in official positions and who can mobilise to freeze out people in academia - people who go on to plan the state and capital, this time along open diverse lines in the Long term People who make their guilt your issue in the short term.

Absolutely we had the same in the 80s where the 'isms' all got well paid jobs in the public sector and built hierarchies of oppression and healthy bank balances.

I have had this conversation before but the conclusion of the 1980s hierarchies of oppression ( which intersectionality is very similar to) produced the marvellous conclusion that if you were white the best you could be was an anti racist racist.

 

[el-ahrairah]

if you were white the best you could be was an anti racist racist.

they said i could be anything i wanted....

 

[frogwoman]

http://disillusionedmarxist.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/jewsplaining/ if anyones interested lol

 

[DotCommunist]

Absolutely we had the same in the 80s where the 'isms' all got well paid jobs in the public sector and built hierarchies of oppression and healthy bank balances.

I have had this conversation before but the conclusion of the 1980s hierarchies of oppression ( which intersectionality is very similar to) produced the marvellous conclusion that if you were white the best you could be was an anti racist racist.

see I have considered this idea before and it older than your experience by my (patchy) reading, within movements and seeing a resurgence now. The real opposition must be laughing on the other side of their faces to see people get so mugged

 

[frogwoman]

http://loreley.flyingparchment.org....ill-be-intersectional-or-it-will-be-bullshit/ .

 

[butchersapron]

http://loreley.flyingparchment.org....ill-be-intersectional-or-it-will-be-bullshit/ i don't know where to start with this ...

Why not ignore it?

 

[butchersapron]

Let's get Laurie.

 

[andysays]

Let's get Laurie.

Define "get"

 

[butchersapron]

Why?

 

[andysays]

Why?

Sigh...

...Because unless you clarify what you mean by "Let's get Laurie" any meaningful response is impossible.

Or is tonight cryptic comments night and I've just misplaced my diary?

 

[butchersapron]

Oh god, you actually typed out 'sigh'.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

the psy

 

[kavenism]

http://loreley.flyingparchment.org....ill-be-intersectional-or-it-will-be-bullshit/ .

It's ok up to the last two paragraphs, then it goes completely conger eel.

to reduce left politics to a simple class struggle is at best a futile academic exercise; at worst, it appropriates the struggles of queers, people of colour, women, and other marginalised groups for the benefit of privileged white men, and is in itself a manifestation of oppression.

 

[kavenism]

Class struggle. Is oppression.

 

[Limerick Red]

http://loreley.flyingparchment.org....ill-be-intersectional-or-it-will-be-bullshit/ .

Dont worry white cis males, your oppression is only economic!

 

[J Ed]

The inclusivity of my stable of bloggers will be intersectional with membership of the House of Lords or it will be bullshit! https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/362880284447866880

 

[Bakunin]

The inclusivity of my stable of bloggers will be intersectional with membership of the House of Lords

Check your privilege.

 

[J Ed]

101 Everyday Ways for Men to Be Allies to Women

http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-ways-for-men-to-be-allies-to-women/

A lot of these suggestions are good and you would think would be common sense to any decent human being but some of them just confuse me and are hardly universally applicable and some seem contradictory.

19. Let yourself cry and be emotional.

Men are taught that showing emotion (especially in public) is frowned upon and not masculine. Screw that… Challenge traditional expectations of masculinity and stand in solidarity with women and the LGBT community in changing gender expectations. Crying, being emotional, and being true to how you really feel despite cultural expectations is a MUST.

21. Read websites like Feministing, Colorlines, Jezebel, etc. for your news sources.

Check out these sites DAILY! All of them have great news stories from a feminist perspective and will help you in your journey towards becoming a better ally. What’s great about these sites is that they always have links to other great websites.

40. Never seek recognition or affirmation.

While some men are made fun of for caring about women’s rights and feminism, there is very something alluring about being a male feminist (or so I hear). There aren’t many of us, therefore it may seem tempting to let this get to your head. Also, it may seem tempting to seek validation and verbal recognition from women and people you know for caring about these issues and being different. Guess what, this is your responsibility. Why should you receive recognition when women don’t? This is why I absolutely hate it when I’m recognized at conferences for being one of like two or three males present. I don’t want the recognition and neither should you. Don’t advertise yourself as a “male feminist” in search of respect. You’re just going to come across as rude, fake, and completely disrespectful. Do the work with humility and modesty.

OK, got it, no t-shirts!

52. Learn about your own familial roots and culture.

If you don’t know where you came from, it’s going to be be difficult to see where you’re going. Explore! Culture and diversity is beautiful, and being able to appreciate and respect culture will make you a better ally.
Intersectionality is vital to allyship! Your race/ethnicity are important, and it will set you down different paths. White male allies will have different experiences than male allies of color. Understanding how your identities intersect matter!

59. Respect “her” culture.

Make an effort to learn about your girlfriend, partner, or spouse’s cultural background. Respect her culture’s traditions and love ALL of her.

Fine for me and my family's Irish background but what if I were the descendent of some sort of Southern US aristo? Should my feminism be intersectional with neo-confederacy?

70. Learn and use appropriate vocabulary.

Go back to #25 and check out those books. Familiarize yourself. Here are some keywords you should know: feminism, patriarchy, oppression, privilege, resistance, intersectionality, LGBTQQIAA (and what each letter stands for), double consciousness, masculinity, femininity, differences between sex and gender, gender spectrum, sexism (and all of the -isms), glass ceiling, glass escalator, whiteness, etc. That’s a good starter list. Believe me, there’s a lot more.

Weird how intersectionalistas never think to make THEIR language more applicable to everyone else rather than vice versa.

80. Make your space feminist!

Posters, wall art, flags, or any feminist propaganda! Make your room an inclusive, decorative place to remind you of what you’re invested in. On my wall, I have posters and flyers from all the events and protests I have ever attended in my college career.

But point 40?

81. Make a Twitter account.

I’ve found tremendous success in connecting to other feminists and allies via Twitter! I strongly suggest you make a Twitter and use that to keep up with feminist blogs, activists, and movements.

lol

84. Cook with your girlfriend, partner, or spouse.

Come on, it’s cute. It shows her you care. It might even help you out later down the road.

What if I almost always cook for my girlfriend, should I be encouraging her to cook with me?

94. Showcase your feminist pride! (If you’re comfortable)

Wear t-shirts, sport wristbands, or put cool bumper stickers on your car. Make noise! There are many different ways to do so. As a man, you’re bound to draw attention and possibly rally support with your feminist gear. Here’s my favorite t-shirt design.

40?

 

[caleb]

Was just about to post that. You left off one of the most ridiculous (and telling):

38. Put yourself in situations for self-growth through activism.

• If you have an opportunity to learn more through a job, internship, or position in activism, I encourage you to give it a whirl. Activism is a beautiful, raw way to put your beliefs into practice.

 

[butchersapron]

The 'LGBT community' is always crying. It's what they do.

 

[butchersapron]

Hang on, to be nice you must do an internship. Yep, that tells me all i need to know about your bubble.