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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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Not sure about causing her to do so, but I think it's identity politics (and in particular how identity politics apply to elites - i.e. fluid for her and her type, fixed for the rest of us)

Good point. The idea of fluidity of identity politics for the middle-class is an important one which you've pointed out well here.

I don't know if you were in Lambeth at the time but under Linda Bellos mentioned it earlier on this thread - it was often done like this. She and her decisions were on the side of the working-class because her mum worked in a factory, on the side of all black people because her father was black, on the side of all women since she was a woman, on the side of all racially conscious white people because her mother was white who had married across the colour line, on the side of all homosexual people because she was a lesbian, on the side of all religious minorities because her mother was Jewish.
UCATT and T&G as it was then which went on strike against scrapping the direct labour scheme iirc, it was whites holding out against the Lambeth (ie mostly black) service users, 'they'd rather we didn't start the playscheme for black mothers'.

However when the dishonest nature was pointed out it got pretty ugly :- accusations of coconuts, homophobes, racists, middle-class/working-class, typical whites, etc.
Icky even writing all this stuff.
 
isn't that pretty much what I said in the first place though (particular the bit in bold)!

identity politics have enabled her (without contradiction in her eyes) to superficially identity as a class struggle activist, despite the complete and utter lack of class content, analysis and outlook in her politics
I don't see the contradiction really - LP might wel use ID politics to justify herself, but structurally she's following a well-worn path that predates ID politics?
 
isn't that pretty much what I said in the first place though! (particular the bit above in bold)

identity politics have enabled her (without contradiction in her eyes) to superficially identity as a class struggle activist, despite the complete and utter lack of class content, analysis and outlook in her politics
Yes, you did. I was agreeing with you just putting it in a different way.
 
Sure but fighting austerity itself should be/is fighting for secularism against free schools which have a higher percentage of faith schools etc.


There certainly are a lot of crossover issues re: secularism and neoliberalism, good very recent example of that here.

http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/07/church-to-take-over-thousands-of-community-schools

The Church of England has struck a deal with the Government that will allow it to take control of thousands of non-religious community schools.

Despite reassurances that the character of community schools will remain intact, with no change in religious education, admissions policies or employment terms for teachers, the National Secular Society has expressed grave doubts that this promise will be kept over the long-term.
Executive Director of the National Secular Society, Keith Porteous Wood, said that the move would inevitably lead to a further religionisation of the school system.

Speaking to The Times newspaper, Mr Porteous Wood said: "This will surreptitiously bring the education system under religious control. It will lead to the further alienation of school children who are from non-religious or religiously unconcerned families. Despite now being the majority, they are becoming increasingly disadvantaged in admissions and by the growing religionisation of publicly-funded schools."
Mr Wood said: "Once schools have been taken over by religious interests, it will be almost impossible to ever bring them back under community control."

Bishops will have the power to appoint governors at the schools.

At a seminar in Lambeth Palace, Education Secretary Michael Gove once more sang the praises of Church schools, ignoring the unjust admissions criteria and discriminatory employment practices in appointing teachers.

He said: "We would not have so many great state schools in this country without the Church of England. I know the Church does a wonderful job helping to raise educational standards and in providing a safe and loving environment for hundreds of thousands of children.

"However, there is much more we can do together. I want the Church to recover the spirit which infused its educational mission in Victorian times and support more new schools — especially academies and free schools — to bring educational excellence to the nation's poorest children."

Bishop John Pritchard, the Church's education leader, told The Times: "I think people may not realise the significance of what looks like a small technical change but actually allows the mutual support, the drawing together of resources, experiments in collaboration. It allows a whole lot more and it will enhance the educational experience of millions of children." Nothing could more clearly demonstrate the concerns the NSS has expressed.

He also predicted "steady, faster" growth in the number of church-led academy chains, especially among primary schools, and said that academy status would become "the norm" for church schools. The Church of England is already the biggest sponsor of academies, with 217 schools that converted to become academies and 50 church academies that replaced failing schools. There are 4,484 Church of England primary and middle schools, a quarter of the total, and 193 secondary schools.

Bishop Pritchard said that joining church-led groups of academies was the best way for small primary schools to secure their future.

I would still be wary of arguing against this purely on the basis that the schools that are being converted are being turned over to the CoE, though I do find that worrying, partly because some secularists aligned to groups like the National Secular Society have hardly covered themselves with glory on this subject either. Rather than fight against free schools, some atheists have openly floated the idea of instead opening atheist free schools.

In any case, there are a lot of reasons why parents and teachers should be very worried about academies and free schools that would probably resonate a lot more effectively with them than religion. CoE schools seem pretty popular with non-Anglican religious parents and even some non-religious parents.
 
I don't see the contradiction really - LP might wel use ID politics to justify herself, but structurally she's following a well-worn path that predates ID politics?

What well-worn path is that?

ETA: I read backwards - you mean MC domination of WC politics
 
I don't see the contradiction really - LP might wel use ID politics to justify herself, but structurally she's following a well-worn path that predates ID politics?

Well in the same way that for example, money, credit and exchange predated capitalism and the relentless imperialism of capitalist social relations disciplines, subordinates, reshapes and uses these things in accordance with its own logic, then the relentless imperialism of identity politics takes things that predate it and...erm....ahhh......i've lost the thread of this now....

Hopefully someone can untangle that and get to something close to what I meant - but I think the point is that Identity politics enables and offers a way in to domination/exploitation by elites that didn't exist prior to its dominance. Yes it ends up with the same result as always with elite domination and control, just like exploitation exists in pre-capitalist social relations and also exists in capitalist relations. But it's the manner, the method and the means by which that domination/exploitation is achieved/enabled that is different. And I think from the point of view of analysis these differences in method need to be looked at, differentiated and understood for what they are, as that's how the domination is effected/enabled and in turn provides the attack points for how it can be combatted. That manner and means (in relation to identity politics) is more subtle and on the surface something that looks progressive and something that could be your friend. Again I think this has parralles with the way exploitation is enabled under capitalism - it's all done through (distorted and inverted) notions of freedom

Have I stretched the analogy too far perhaps!
 
Well in the same way that for example, money, credit and exchange predated capitalism and the relentless imperialism of capitalist social relations disciplines, subordinates, reshapes and uses these things in accordance with its own logic, then the relentless imperialism of identity politics takes things that predate it and...erm....ahhh......i've lost the thread of this now....

Hopefully someone can untangle that and get to something close to what I meant - but I think the point is that Identity politics enables and offers a way in to domination/exploitation by elites that didn't exist prior to its dominance. Yes it ends up with the same result as always with elite domination and control, just like exploitation exists in pre-capitalist social relations and also exists in capitalist relations. But it's the manner, the method and the means by which that domination/exploitation is achieved/enabled that is different. And I think from the point of view of analysis these differences in method need to be looked at, differentiated and understood for what they are, as that's how the domination is effected/enabled and in turn provides the attack points for how it can be combatted. That manner and means (in relation to identity politics) is more subtle and on the surface something that looks progressive and something that could be your friend. Again I think this has parralles with the way exploitation is enabled under capitalism - it's all done through (distorted and inverted) notions of freedom

Have I stretched the analogy too far perhaps!
Cheers. I think, if I read you correctly, that we're agreeing? :p
 
But the disagreement there to LP is a subjective one.
Projects like the New Inquiry, Molly Crabapple's crowdfunder socialist-radical art etc. are anti-capitalist endeavours to LP.

The problem for me is that "the bubble's" anti-capitalism is of the reformist "change it from inside" type. The sort that doesn't generally work, but does make the people undertaking it feel (wrongly, IMO) like they've earned their stripes.
 
A few pages back you lot were talking about the 'RevSoc' zines from UEL and Leeds, well this has just gone up:

http://revsocs.wordpress.com

Good lord

Perhaps people fail to be intersectional because it is difficult. Intersectionality makes you call out friends, family and comrades. In some circles it may mean you’re the one who always brings gender into the discussion, in some you’re always making it about race. Intersectionality means you complain about inaccessibility of events that may have been fantastic in every other way. It means you find faults in people’s favourite songs, films, books, or fashion items, because they perpetuate racism, sexism, homophobia, trans*phobia, disableism, islamophobia, or other oppressive attitudes. Intersectionality means people may start to find you very annoying.

Intersectionality is especially difficult if you don’t face much oppression. It means being an ally to a lot of people, and it means recognising your own privilege and educating yourself on problems some people face, that you may never have to.

But as difficult as it is to be intersectional, it is so necessary. So long as the left is splintered and incoherent as we all struggle individually, we can never build the kind of strength we need. As a movement, we have to challenge and fight each facet of capitalism simultaneously and with equal amounts of energy and commitment.

Is this ripe for parody copliker?
The Secret Diary of Intersectional Albert Mole Aged 18 and 3/4.
A student goes around telling his parents how antisemitic they are for going to Wagner operas, his friends how sexist they are for still listening to My Chemical Romance records and his comrades how racist they are for not dancing along to Beyonce songs.

Would it be seen as too heartless or too much of an easy target?
 
Good lord

Perhaps people fail to be intersectional because it is difficult. Intersectionality makes you call out friends, family and comrades. In some circles it may mean you’re the one who always brings gender into the discussion, in some you’re always making it about race. Intersectionality means you complain about inaccessibility of events that may have been fantastic in every other way. It means you find faults in people’s favourite songs, films, books, or fashion items, because they perpetuate racism, sexism, homophobia, trans*phobia, disableism, islamophobia, or other oppressive attitudes. Intersectionality means people may start to find you very annoying.

Intersectionality is especially difficult if you don’t face much oppression. It means being an ally to a lot of people, and it means recognising your own privilege and educating yourself on problems some people face, that you may never have to.

But as difficult as it is to be intersectional, it is so necessary. So long as the left is splintered and incoherent as we all struggle individually, we can never build the kind of strength we need. As a movement, we have to challenge and fight each facet of capitalism simultaneously and with equal amounts of energy and commitment.

Is this ripe for parody copliker?
The Secret Diary of Intersectional Albert Mole Aged 18 and 3/4.
A student goes around telling his parents how antisemitic they are for going to Wagner operas, his friends how sexist they are for still listening to My Chemical Romance records and his comrades how racist they are for not dancing along to Beyonce songs.

Would it be seen as too heartless or too much of an easy target?

Antisemitism rarely figures into intersectionalista's concerns tbh.

That highlighted part is mental (sorry, ableism) though, yeah.
 
The Leeds Friends of Syria group are active supporters of Western intervention in Syria, and their wider politics leave a lot to be desired.

Quite hard to work this out. This article here http://leedsfriendsofsyria.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/syria-and-the-west/ written by Harry Shotton https://twitter.com/HarryShotton certainly seems in favour of western intervention.

Instead, I’d argue that, given the substantial mistakes that the West has made in the past, and continues to make on a daily basis, the West should focus on increasing diplomatic efforts in preparation for a transition of power. This could be done by increasing the pressure on Assad’s inner circle,diplomatically, economically, and militarily in an effort the force the conflict towards an end.

This is otherwise known as the John McCain neo-con republican position.

There's a great big "The views expressed in this article are those of the author, and do not necessarily reflect the positions of Leeds Friends of Syria" at the end of the article though. Maybe there's a pro-intervention and a anti-intervention split in the group?
 
I'm just taken aback by this lot tbh. The Leeds Friends of Syria group are active supporters of Western intervention in Syria, and their wider politics leave a lot to be desired. Why "revolutionary socialists" would seek to be involved with them is beyond me.


Same thing is going on with Sheffield RevSoc IIRC, it's not that surprising though is it? Who are the ISN to contradict a 'self organising group of BME students' that they've worked with in the past?
 
Quite hard to work this out. This article here http://leedsfriendsofsyria.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/syria-and-the-west/ written by Harry Shotton https://twitter.com/HarryShotton certainly seems in favour of western intervention.



This is otherwise known as the John McCain neo-con republican position.

There's a great big "The views expressed in this article are those of the author, and do not necessarily reflect the positions of Leeds Friends of Syria" at the end of the article though. Maybe there's a pro-intervention and a anti-intervention split in the group?

My mate was briefly involved and he said it's basically the general position.
 
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