Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[JimW]

Uh, "communism [and] ambition", lol.

Could work - I aspire to be the most like Lei Feng in all my doings and dealings.

 

[DotCommunist]

generation Z?

 

[caleb]

I wonder what communism means to these people. Is it the abolition of the law of value, or is it a stronger welfare state. I wonder.

 

[el-ahrairah]

I wonder what communism means to these people. Is it the abolition of the law of value, or is it a stronger welfare state. I wonder.

i have often wondered that. they identify as anarchist and / or communist but don't seem to espouse any values that you wouldn't find in the modern Labour Party. are we seeing a rebranding going on? or are they just that ignorant?

 

[sihhi]

You are preaching to the choir to be honest I agree with you wholeheartedly on what should be happening but any actual activism towards secularism seems like pissing in the wind and in any case seems to me to be a lot less important than other issues like fighting austerity.

Here's Ellie Mae O'Hagan's weak response, UKIP's urge for Channel 4 to rethink might well be "bigotry" to a liberal, but will be seen by others as trying to uphold a losing line against 'newer' 'discriminatory' religions in Britain. It's been gifted them for zero reason.

https://twitter.com/MissEllieMae/status/352742456577638401

I'm aware of disagreements between Muslims over C4's decision, but I think we can all agree #UKIP's opposition is probably bigotry.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

More like a military coup...

i saw this gem, what a fucking dick she is....

 

[caleb]

i have often wondered that. they identify as anarchist and / or communist but don't seem to espouse any values that you wouldn't find in the modern Labour Party. are we seeing a rebranding going on? or are they just that ignorant?

What gets me is it seems to be wilful ignorance. I remember someone from this sort of milieu (yeah, yeah...) who told me communism was robots taking over commodity production and exchange and profit being shared equally as universal income, thought Marxism and anarchism "are basically the same thing", and thought autonomism was 'individualist Marxism'. This is whilst identifying as a communist, anarchist and autonomist. Now it doesn't take five minutes, even on a source as questionable as wikipedia, to realise how wrong this all is, and one would have thought if you identify as a communist or anarchist you're looking through, say, the libcom library and getting to grips with the literature there on a regular basis. I wouldn't have the gall to call myself a communist unless I thought I knew what I was talking about, and yet...

I think it's a contrarian thing though, calling yourself a communist makes you're shite social-democratic politics look dangerous, glamorous, extreme.

 

[frogwoman]

well someone from the SP once told me that "businesses would flourish under socialism"

 

[love detective]

What gets me is it seems to be wilful ignorance. I remember someone from this sort of milieu (yeah, yeah...) who told me communism was robots taking over commodity production and exchange and profit being shared equally as universal income, thought Marxism and anarchism "are basically the same thing", and thought autonomism was 'individualist Marxism'. This is whilst identifying as a communist, anarchist and autonomist. Now it doesn't take five minutes, even on a source as questionable as wikipedia, to realise how wrong this all is, and one would have thought if you identify as a communist or anarchist you're looking through, say, the libcom library and getting to grips with the literature there on a regular basis. I wouldn't have the gall to call myself a communist unless I thought I knew what I was talking about, and yet...

I think it's a contrarian thing though, calling yourself a communist makes you're shite social-democratic politics look dangerous, glamorous, extreme.

Yep, it seems like the natural logic of the relentless imperialism of identity politics. And like all identity politics it's skin deep with no progressive substance

 

[frogwoman]

I also think there's massive confusion about what communism/socialism really is by people who call themselves communists. Stalinists, trots, social democratic reformists and left communists all call themselves communists and the term has become a bit meaningless.

Fuck I call myself a communist and my view of communism is also pretty confused

 

[seventh bullet]

Do you have to be 'well-read' or even be able to read to be a communist?

 

[frogwoman]

Do you have to be 'well-read' or even be able to read to be a communist?

No.

 

[TruXta]

Do you have to be 'well-read' or even be able to read to be a communist?

What do you think those re-education camps are for?

 

[frogwoman]

the people like laurie penny and many of the trots who think they are well-read and all clued up about communism often aren't ... at all.
and that includes me tbf

 

[sihhi]

Yep, it seems like the natural logic of the relentless imperialism of identity politics.

This is pretty odd. When LP states herself a revolutionary socialist, as she does, it's not identity politics that's causing her to do so, is it? Middle-class domination (by access to professional and media roles etc) of working-class causes has a far longer heritage than identity politics.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Do you have to be 'well-read' or even be able to read to be a communist?

definitely not. i've told a lot of people on here that their views are communist or anarchist when they say what they are, but they don't consider themselves either because their ideas of what a communist or anarchist are are different to what they think they themselves are. if that makes sense.

the theory is a way of explaining the world, but to a communist or an anarchist you simple need to agree with a few key ideas and try to put them into practise.

similarly, if you claim you're not a liberal but you participate in, hold viewpoints in agreement with, and promote capitalistic endeavour within the mainstream, then sorry malcolm and penny, you're a goddam liberal.

 

[TruXta]

definitely not. i've told a lot of people on here that their views are communist or anarchist when they say what they are, but they don't consider themselves either because their ideas of what a communist or anarchist are are different to what they think they themselves are. if that makes sense.

the theory is a way of explaining the world, but to a communist or an anarchist you simple need to agree with a few key ideas and try to put them into practise.

similarly, if you claim you're not a liberal but you participate in, hold viewpoints in agreement with, and promote capitalistic endeavour within the mainstream, then sorry malcolm and penny, you're a goddam liberal.

Kinda difficult not to "participate in [...] capistalistic endeavour" tho isn't it?

 

[el-ahrairah]

Kinda difficult not to "participate in [...] capistalistic endeavour" tho isn't it?

yes, that was badly put. but you know what i mean.

 

[TruXta]

yes, that was badly put. but you know what i mean.

Sorry , yes I do.

 

[caleb]

the people like laurie penny and many of the trots who think they are well-read and all clued up about communism often aren't ... at all.
and that includes me tbf

You're being unfair on yourself here though, because from what I've seen on this forum I get the impression you have an intellectual curiosity and you're always looking for ways to learn more. My point is that with Penny and that, at least as far as "communism" is concerned, that doesn't exist. They're communists because they call themselves that, but "communism" could mean anything as far as they are concerned.

 

[barney_pig]

the people like laurie penny and many of the trots who think they are well-read and all clued up about communism often aren't ... at all.
and that includes me tbf

When I left swap pie Trotskyism behind one thing that I realised was "all that reading" I and my comrades had done was so much bollocks. We had bought the books, and put them on the shelves, but no one actually did more than glance at them. Heaven forbid we ever allowed ourselves to be open to ideas outside of our comfort zone.

 

[sihhi]

similarly, if you claim you're not a liberal but you participate in, hold viewpoints in agreement with, and promote capitalistic endeavour within the mainstream, then sorry malcolm and penny, you're a goddam liberal.

But the disagreement there to LP is a subjective one.
Projects like the New Inquiry, Molly Crabapple's crowdfunder socialist-radical art etc. are anti-capitalist endeavours to LP.
You, el ahrairah, are at risk of being a hater (possibly also a reflecter of unexamined white left-flavoured privilege) because you deny that they are anti-capitalist.
LP merely wants you to examine your racism and sexism, LP doesn't deny you are anti-capitalist.
It's basically impossible to settle.

 

[love detective]

This is pretty odd. When LP states herself a revolutionary socialist, as she does, it's not identity politics that's causing her to do so, is it? Middle-class domination (by access to professional and media roles etc) of working-class causes has a far longer heritage than identity politics.

Not sure about causing her to do so, but I think it's identity politics (and in particular how identity politics apply to elites - i.e. fluid for her and her type, fixed for the rest of us) that enables her, in terms of self justification, to 'self identify' as a revolutionary socialist

 

[ska invita]

communism was robots taking over commodity production and exchange and profit being shared equally as universal income, thought Marxism and anarchism "are basically the same thing"...

this sounds a bit like me tbf, especially the fist bit....plus there is a lot of overlap between autonomist marxist tradtions and anarchism isnt there - why are these ideas so wrong?

 

[sihhi]

Take this latest example:

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/352537070180368386

I've been meaning to Kickstarter a book for some time out of the many many projects I have in the air. But I must finish this one first!!

It ^^ is an anti-capitalist endeavour for LP.
Plus the fact that she assists working-class journalists make contacts, enter internships and jobs that's also anti-capitalist endeavour, so doing ostensibly liberal pro-capitalist stuff is a price worth paying.

 

[frogwoman]

You're being unfair on yourself here though, because from what I've seen on this forum I get the impression you have an intellectual curiosity and you're always looking for ways to learn more. My point is that with Penny and that, at least as far as "communism" is concerned, that doesn't exist. They're communists because they call themselves that, but "communism" could mean anything as far as they are concerned.

But a trot view of communism which is what i subscribed to at least partially for a long time and a sort of semi stalinist view of it which i subscribed to before that, that's an idea with some very major flaws to it, not least the fact that capital accumulation and exploitation of people's surplus labour value is still there, except it's done by the state instead of private enterprise. That's why I've come to the idea that vanguardism is such bullshit, because the people who think they are vanguards and advanced layers of the class often know fuck all, and often a lot less than the people they deride as being "backward layers" or whatever. I do think their ideas have some merits to them and they've done some important work but at the same time I think trotskyist parties have done some damage and a lot of the stuff I derided people on here for actually does have a point to it.

And yeah that includes me, there's loads I don't know about communism. You can have read like 20 books by trotsky and think you're advanced but have less actual understanding than somebody who's read no books ever.

 

[love detective]

this sounds a bit like me tbf, especially the fist bit....plus there is a lot of overlap between autonomist marxist tradtions and anarchism isnt there - why are these ideas so wrong?

Are you asking what is wrong about the categories of commodity production & exchange and profit being talked about in the context of a communist society?

 

[cesare]

Not sure about causing her to do so, but I think it's identity politics (and in particular how identity politics apply to elites - i.e. fluid for her and her type, fixed for the rest of us) that enables her, in terms of self justification, to 'self identify' as a revolutionary socialist

Whatever personal problems that she's had in the past (and she's been public about anorexia and family breakup for example) appear to have caused the retreat into identity politics; the area she feels most secure in. Then she's built her politics on that. Class doesn't enter into it apart from being defensive when someone points it out - probably because the safety/security of the class and social/economic capital that she's been born into is something that she takes for granted.

 

[love detective]

Whatever personal problems that she's had in the past (and she's been public about anorexia and family breakup for example) appear to have caused the retreat into identity politics; the area she feels most secure in. Then she's built her politics on that. Class doesn't enter into it apart from being defensive when someone points it out - probably because the safety/security of the class and social/economic capital that she's been born into is something that she takes for granted.

isn't that pretty much what I said in the post that your post above replied to! (particular the bit above in bold)

identity politics have enabled her (without contradiction in her eyes) to superficially identity as a class struggle activist, despite the complete and utter lack of class content, analysis and outlook in her politics

 

[caleb]

this sounds a bit like me tbf, especially the fist bit....plus there is a lot of overlap between autonomist marxist tradtions and anarchism isnt there - why are these ideas so wrong?

Love detective's got there before me, but to reiterate: commodity production and exchange, and profit would not exist in a communist society. Whether you think this is possible or not is beside the point.

And I didn't mention autonomism in relation to anarchism, but this person's assertion that autonomism is "individualist marxism", taking "autonomy" to mean individual autonomy rather than class autonomy.