Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Idris2002]

This is diff from fantasy stuff as a whole in what way?

Some shitheads have actually turned it into a subculture in which there is 24 role playing of "dominant" and "submissive" roles.

The whole thing is quite positively sick-making.

 

[Idris2002]

Fucking idris and his gifs

 

[sihhi]

Some shitheads have actually turned it into a subculture in which there is 24 role playing of "dominant" and "submissive" roles.

The whole thing is quite positively sick-making.

They regard it as a branch of the pagan religion. This is the 2006 raid (no arrests) referred to in the documentary above.

 

[Idris2002]

*shudders* as a Pre-teen who went on library sci-fi/fantasy binges during Summers at my Gran's I once took out a Gor book...scarred ever since.

Yeah well, that was your mistake right there - I was strictly Hard SF, no fantasy or horror for me thank you very much.

 

[chilango]

This is diff from fantasy stuff as a whole in what way?

It's more extreme/explicit/crude. Far far far worse than anything else I read.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's more extreme/explicit/crude. Far far far worse than anything else I read.

from what I remember it really lingers on it, the same way Terry Goodkind lingers on his extended torture scenes

 

[chilango]

Yeah well, that was your mistake right there - I was strictly Hard SF, no fantasy or horror for me thank you very much.

I should've judged the book by its cover.

But then girls in bikini armour with muscle men with their swords erect is hardly unusual in the genre.

...and I was only 10 or so....

 

[butchersapron]

It's more extreme/explicit/crude. Far far far worse than anything else I read.

Worse than Zerzan?

 

[Idris2002]

I should've judged the book by its cover.

But then girls in bikini armour with muscle men with their swords erect is hardly unusual in the genre.

...and I was only 10 or so....

And most fantasy is reactionary - look at this paean to Tolkien for example:

http://www.thenightland.co.uk/MYWEB/wolfemountains.html

 

[Idris2002]

Worse than Zerzan?

Worse than the chicken at Tresski's.

 

[butchersapron]

Worse than the chicken at Tresski's.

I don't like you when you have time on your hands. Busy yourself!

 

[chilango]

And most fantasy is reactionary - look at this paean to Tolkien for example:

http://www.thenightland.co.uk/MYWEB/wolfemountains.html

Indeed.

Wasn't this discussed at some length here recently?

I stopped reading fantasy in my early teens. Crime Fiction and "men falling off mountains" books are my dirty pleasures now.

 

[Red Cat]

"men falling off mountains" books

Feeding the Rat?

 

[Idris2002]

Indeed.

Wasn't this discussed at some length here recently?

Uh-huh. I just found that link by the time the thread had moved on.

 

[chilango]

Feeding the Rat?

Not read that one, but yeah that kinda thing.

 

[Red Cat]

Not read that one, but yeah that kinda thing.

I highly recommend it as someone not into the genre

ETA: Sorry, I think I'm grinning because in a way it's a book about a certain kind of masculinity, feeding the rat describing the compulsive need to take life-risking climbs. It's a brilliantly written book (Al Alvarez is a poet) and I completely unexpectedly loved it.

 

[Idris2002]

I don't like you when you have time on your hands. Busy yourself!

 

[Fruitloop]

What do people think about this article?

http://www.vice.com/read/miley-cyrus-needs-to-take-an-african-american-studies-class



This is the video they are talking about



While I understand exactly what they are talking about, I don't like the premise of the article, which seems to me to be that Miley Cyrus is only treating black people as accessories in her music videos because she is insufficiently educated, I think that most people who would find problems with the video have managed to go through life without having taken African-American Studies classes.

For example, here's British rapper Akala discussing a similar, albeit more egregious, example by a British white rapper



I usually think that complaints about cultural appropriation are a bit much, but Akala's talk here is persuasive IMO.

I don't find it that persuasive. Is Maverick Sabre's voice actually supposed to be Jamaican? It is weird and affected (quite intentionally so, I think), and in this particular video he has twisted it towards the way that Professor Green sounds, but it's not really representative of the way anyone speaks, Jamaican or otherwise. Professor Green sounds like he's from Hackney - which he is - although the extent to which he's playing it up is pretty much unknowable. Is the rest of the talk any better, 'cos the thing about eminem is just weird.

Couldn't bring myself to watch the Miley Cyrus thing....

 

[Greebo]

This is diff from fantasy stuff as a whole in what way?

Fantasy stuff on the whole doesn't leave me with the urge to self-decontaminate. The Gor book I came across did.

 

[Tom A]

They should send her to Rafah, and not let her come back until she's worked it out for herself.

No, god no... Palestine has more than enough pretentious pseudo-leftie bastards visiting there on a major ego-boosting trip!

 

[andysays]

Once upon a time, Kate travelled hundreds of miles from London to a really small town in the far north of Scotland. It was a painfully slow journey that gave her too much time to worry about whether Dave would marry her. The bus got stuck in a blizzard and she feared she might die. Kate hoped that this journey would be worth it because the last time she saw him he had a terribly nice arse. Stuck in London with writers block she dreamed that his arse would work its magic spell and unleash the poetry beast within. 'Oh, how I hope he'll marry me', she said to herself softly, drawing her blanket closely round her shoulders.

Yes, yes...

...what happened next??

Did Kate's bus make it through the blizzard?

Did Dave still have a nice arse?

Did they get married and live happily ever after, struggling together with their comrades to achieve a new world of libertarian socialism?

You can't just leave us all fucking hanging like that

 

[Lo Siento.]

While I understand exactly what they are talking about, I don't like the premise of the article, which seems to me to be that Miley Cyrus is only treating black people as accessories in her music videos because she is insufficiently educated, I think that most people who would find problems with the video have managed to go through life without having taken African-American Studies classes.

For example, here's British rapper Akala discussing a similar, albeit more egregious, example by a British white rapper



I usually think that complaints about cultural appropriation are a bit much, but Akala's talk here is persuasive IMO.

According to his wikipedia, Professor Green grew up on a council estate in Clapton (Northwold) and was a drug dealer at one point. Why should he be any more or less entitled to use that imagery than Akala, if it's representative of his life experience (not saying that it is, but that's a different argument...)?

 

[J Ed]

According to his wikipedia, Professor Green grew up on a council estate in Clapton (Northwold) and was a drug dealer at one point. Why should he be any more or less entitled to use that imagery than Akala, if it's representative of his life experience (not saying that it is, but that's a different argument...)?

A fair point, I didn't know that about Professor Green and I suppose I assumed that it actually wasn't the case because of how Akala was talking about him, although I think Akala might prefer that people don't glamourise criminal violence at all regardless of race. He criticised Maverick Sabre, who is black, for doing the video too and seems to regret it a bit.

 

[sihhi]

A fair point, I didn't know that about Professor Green and I suppose I assumed that it actually wasn't the case because of how Akala was talking about him, although I think Akala might prefer that people don't glamourise criminal violence at all regardless of race. He criticised Maverick Sabre, who is black, for doing the video too and seems to regret it a bit.

1. Maverick Sabre is not black.

2. To reiterate the general point. Akala (little brother of Ms Dynamite) who has never lived in Jamaica but is someone of mixed Scot-2nd generation Jamaican heritage, brought up by their Scottish mum in Kentish Town not Hackney attacking someone else from Hackney for allowing Jamaican inflexion on a song about Hackney is pretty absurd.

3. All of this middle-class bluster including Akala's sheds zero light on anything.

 

[J Ed]

Oops I was confusing him with someone else I didn't think that it did shed much light on anything really

 

[agricola]

1. Maverick Sabre is not black.

2. To reiterate the general point. Akala (little brother of Ms Dynamite) who has never lived in Jamaica but is someone of mixed Scot-2nd generation Jamaican heritage, brought up by their Scottish mum in Kentish Town not Hackney attacking someone else from Hackney for allowing Jamaican inflexion on a song about Hackney is pretty absurd.

3. All of this middle-class bluster including Akala's sheds zero light on anything.

So what you are saying is that Akala should really be harping on about The Wicker Man?

 

[Lo Siento.]

A fair point, I didn't know that about Professor Green and I suppose I assumed that it actually wasn't the case because of how Akala was talking about him, although I think Akala might prefer that people don't glamourise criminal violence at all regardless of race. He criticised Maverick Sabre, who is black, for doing the video too and seems to regret it a bit.

Wasn't his point precisely not this, he was implying that he (and all other black people) did have the right to glamourise criminal violence (if they wanted to) but Professor Green didn't?

(and at root here, there's a deeper point about identity politics and appropriation. That for identity politics, it's legitimate to use whatever you like "authentically" within the identity group's experience, regardless of whether it was your own experience. It's illegitimate to use those experiences, even if they are your own, if you're outside the identity group, because then you put the whole coherence of that identity in trouble...)

 

[J Ed]

Wasn't his point precisely not this, he was implying that he (and all other black people) did have the right to glamourise criminal violence (if they wanted to) but Professor Green didn't?

What I got out of it was that he thought that no one should be saying these things, but white rappers in particular shouldn't be saying them which when you take class into account isn't very sensible really but wouldn't be quite as bad as if your interpretation is correct.

 

[Lo Siento.]

What I got out of it was that he thought that no one should be saying these things, but white rappers in particular shouldn't be saying them which when you take class into account isn't very sensible really but wouldn't be quite as bad as if your interpretation is correct.

There's certain boundaries. Just because black people want to disrespect themselves on a case of being black ... doesn't give you the right because you might live next to them.

The boundary being erected is for Professor Green, that's the point of the intervention. (and the counter-point of course is that in the case of the things Professor Green is referencing, Hackney life, crime and violence, they are his experiences, he's not just living next to them. He's only excluded from them if you think those experiences are exclusively black experiences)

 

[sihhi]

Yes, I know she talks about male writers and I understand her points but... she also talks about growing up reading stories and the expectations set up from childhood fiction and I just don't think it's true that growing up as a girl the only female characters we encounter in stories are forgettable supporting ones. For a start, the most famous children's fiction writers have been women, for largely sexist reasons, so what about the tension between views of femininity in novels such as Little Women or Little House on the Prairie or the Railway Children?, the books I remember most from my childhood with strong girl characters. It's not enough to just portray them as the odd tomboy who gets married off ASAP, they're more complex than that.

She may argue that she's only talking about fantasy fiction, which is very possible given how confusing her writing is (conveniently letting her off the hook whenever anyone challenges her about her generalisations). I think it's true that if the stories are aimed at boys, which much fantasy stuff is, they will have boy main characters. But even there that's not all there is - what about Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials - the main character is a girl, a strong female character. LP is just the age to have read that as a child, it must be, apart from Harry Potter, the most famous children's fiction of the past 3 decades, fantasy, a genre she likes, and yet...puff!...it's like it doesn't exist.

What do you think of this earlier LP analysis of Doctor Who - I haven't watched any of it properly only for some baby-sitting.

"Even the most populist science fiction engages playfully with gender: consider Russell T Davies's relaunch of Doctor Who in 2005 which, along with scary monsters, intergalactic battles and epic quantities of BBC slime, posited the notion that, in the future, being gay or bisexual might not be any sort of social impediment.
At its most powerful, science and speculative fiction seeks to delocalise and make strange the structures of everyday existence. In so doing, it can't help but replicate the strategies of radical politics and identity politics."

More generally are the two claims here true:

"This particularly the case in Britain, which has long produced the best science fiction in the world, all of which has been roundly snubbed by the bourgeois literary establishment."

1 Have capitalist publishing and awards snubbed science fiction?

2 Does Britain produce the best science fiction in the world, after all Margaret Atwood as supported in the article is Canadian ?