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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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Red Cat These are the points LP makes about male writers

I wish I’d known, at 21, when I made up my mind to try to write seriously for a living if I could, that that decision would also mean a choice to be intimidating to the men I fancied, a choice to be less attractive, a choice to stop being That Girl and start becoming a grown woman, which is the worst possible thing a girl can do, which is why so many of those Manic Pixie Dream Girl characters, as written by male geeks and scriptwriters, either die tragically young or are somehow immortally fixed at the physical and mental age of nineteen-and-a-half.

My Facebook feed is full of young male writers who I have encouraged to believe in themselves, set up with contacts, taken on adventures and talked into the night about the meaning of journalism with who are now in long-term relationships with people who are content to be That Girl.

I packed two suitcases and walked out on Garden State Boy, to be a person who writes her own stories, rather than a story that happens to other people

Men write women, and they re-write us, for revenge. It's about obsession, and control.

Writing about Doctor Who this week got me thinking about sexism in storytelling, and how we rely on lazy character creation in life just as we do in fiction. <...>
The companions of the past three years, since the most recent series reboot, have been the ultimate in lazy sexist tropification, any attempt at actually creating interesting female characters replaced by... That Girl. Amy Pond was That Girl; Clara Oswald has been That Girl; River Song, interestingly enough, did not start out as That Girl, but the character was forcibly turned into That Girl when she no longer fit the temper of a series with contempt for powerful, interesting, grown-up women, and then discarded when she outgrew the role


There are four examples referred to.
Films
1. Elizabethtown
2. Garden State
3. 500 Days of Summer
Plus TV Series Doctor Who.

I believe each of these is male-written (haven't seen any of them tho), and that this point:-
Men write women, and they re-write us, for revenge. It's about obsession, and control.
is what is driven at, that many men use women for emotional self-satisfaction, not treating women as real humans compared to their male friends/associates ie sexism - which is true.
However my point would be that it's important to stress that the kind of sexist culture of the films LP uses as examples comes heavily from a Hollywood industry hinged around romance as complete fulfillment.
The thrust on the lines of:- once someone finds their reciprocal love all other social concerns can take a back seat, young people not able to find love is why they are so restless etc etc. There's a love or lost love interest in just about every Hollywood film that isn't a straight-out comedy or horror. Is that too much of a generalisation?
 
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Red Cat These are the points LP makes about male writers

I wish I’d known, at 21, when I made up my mind to try to write seriously for a living if I could, that that decision would also mean a choice to be intimidating to the men I fancied, a choice to be less attractive, a choice to stop being That Girl and start becoming a grown woman, which is the worst possible thing a girl can do, which is why so many of those Manic Pixie Dream Girl characters, as written by male geeks and scriptwriters, either die tragically young or are somehow immortally fixed at the physical and mental age of nineteen-and-a-half.

My Facebook feed is full of young male writers who I have encouraged to believe in themselves, set up with contacts, taken on adventures and talked into the night about the meaning of journalism with who are now in long-term relationships with people who are content to be That Girl.

I packed two suitcases and walked out on Garden State Boy, to be a person who writes her own stories, rather than a story that happens to other people

Men write women, and they re-write us, for revenge. It's about obsession, and control.

Writing about Doctor Who this week got me thinking about sexism in storytelling, and how we rely on lazy character creation in life just as we do in fiction. <...>
The companions of the past three years, since the most recent series reboot, have been the ultimate in lazy sexist tropification, any attempt at actually creating interesting female characters replaced by... That Girl. Amy Pond was That Girl; Clara Oswald has been That Girl; River Song, interestingly enough, did not start out as That Girl, but the character was forcibly turned into That Girl when she no longer fit the temper of a series with contempt for powerful, interesting, grown-up women, and then discarded when she outgrew the role


There are four examples referred to.
Films
1. Elizabethtown
2. Garden State
3. 500 Days of Summer
Plus TV Series Doctor Who.

I believe each of these is male-written (haven't seen any of them tho), and that this point:-
Men write women, and they re-write us, for revenge. It's about obsession, and control.
is what is driven at, that many men use women for emotional self-satisfaction, not treating women as real humans compared to their male friends/associates ie sexism - which is true.
However my point would be that it's important to stress that the kind of sexist culture of the films LP uses as examples comes heavily from a Hollywood industry hinged around romance as complete fulfillment.
The thrust on the lines of:- once someone finds their reciprocal love all other social concerns can take a back seat, young people not able to find love is why they are so restless etc etc. There's a love or lost love interest in just about every Hollywood film that isn't a straight-out comedy or horror. Is that too much of a generalisation?


As a semi-pro scribbler myself I can sum up her arguments here in one word:

Bollocks.
 
Y'know I'm quite happy for Laurie to write about Dr Who and films and all that stuff. She can even go on TV and talk about em. And if she's wrong it doesn't matter a bit.

It's unlikely LP will be invited to discuss films and TV and the like, there are female middle-class TV critics. LP is however dominating in the female revolutionary socialist invites.
 
That last para is spot on i think.


Isn't it though? We had this discussion a couple of hundred pages back though, Penny gets into all the right positions, but then fails to score. She's the Fernando Torres of journalism. Although, tbf, at least Torres used to be good.
 
What do people think about this article?

http://www.vice.com/read/miley-cyrus-needs-to-take-an-african-american-studies-class

Oh shit, I've done it now. I've fallen into the mental quicksand that is trying to analyze Miley Cyrus and what the fuck is happening in her latest video, "We Can't Stop." I would like to ignore it and shrug it off as old news and not worth talking about, since it came out a week ago and that's like an eternity in internet time. But there seems to be no escaping Miley Cyrus 2.0, the former Disney Hannah Montana starlet who's transmogrified into a sexed-up, ganja-puffing, white-washed Rihanna.

The video for "We Can't Stop" just broke VEVO's all-time record for views in 24 hours—even besting Justin Beiber, another child star getting ready to rebel against his child-friendly image. It's on the lips of every obnoxious Jersey Shore casting reject at every club that used to be playing "Call Me Maybe" on repeat a year ago. It's being discussed at length by bros who high five each other when they explain how much they want to fuck Miley now that they saw her half naked on all fours, ("She's 100 percent legal, dude!") It's being praised by the ironic music nerds who see it as a triumph of pop culture and Tin Pan Alley–like tinkering. And it's also being lambasted for its treatment of blacks, who appear in the video like accessories meant to signify authenticity, just as her tight white pants are meant to represent sexiness. Not to mention the fact that the whole thing feels like a blatant example of gross cultural appropriation, akin to the Pat Boones and Elvises of yesteryear.

This is the video they are talking about



While I understand exactly what they are talking about, I don't like the premise of the article, which seems to me to be that Miley Cyrus is only treating black people as accessories in her music videos because she is insufficiently educated, I think that most people who would find problems with the video have managed to go through life without having taken African-American Studies classes.

For example, here's British rapper Akala discussing a similar, albeit more egregious, example by a British white rapper



I usually think that complaints about cultural appropriation are a bit much, but Akala's talk here is persuasive IMO.
 
Isn't it though? We had this discussion a couple of hundred pages back though, Penny gets into all the right positions, but then fails to score. She's the Fernando Torres of journalism. Although, tbf, at least Torres used to be good.
She just needs her rafa.
 
What do people think about this article?

http://www.vice.com/read/miley-cyrus-needs-to-take-an-african-american-studies-class



This is the video they are talking about



While I understand exactly what they are talking about, I don't like the premise of the article, which seems to me to be that Miley Cyrus is only treating black people as accessories in her music videos because she is insufficiently educated, I think that most people who would find problems with the video have managed to go through life without having taken African-American Studies classes.

For example, here's British rapper Akala discussing a similar, albeit more egregious, example by a British white rapper



I usually think that complaints about cultural appropriation are a bit much, but Akala's talk here is persuasive IMO.


1 The Miley Cyrus video appears as just outright sexism and objectification. Not sure how it needs discussion .

2 Akala, Ms Dynamite's younger brother talking about how an Irish rapper can't use a patois accent, Professor Green might say someone who lives in Kentish Town shouldn't go fingering as racist someone from Hackney talking about violence in the area. As for refering to Eminem as some yardstick of anti-classism ... ?

I dislike all the artists mentioned in the two articles.
Garbage has a high chance of being sexist, racist or classist.
 
Red Cat These are the points LP makes about male writers

Yes, I know she talks about male writers and I understand her points but... she also talks about growing up reading stories and the expectations set up from childhood fiction and I just don't think it's true that growing up as a girl the only female characters we encounter in stories are forgettable supporting ones. For a start, the most famous children's fiction writers have been women, for largely sexist reasons, so what about the tension between views of femininity in novels such as Little Women or Little House on the Prairie or the Railway Children?, the books I remember most from my childhood with strong girl characters. It's not enough to just portray them as the odd tomboy who gets married off ASAP, they're more complex than that.

She may argue that she's only talking about fantasy fiction, which is very possible given how confusing her writing is (conveniently letting her off the hook whenever anyone challenges her about her generalisations). I think it's true that if the stories are aimed at boys, which much fantasy stuff is, they will have boy main characters. But even there that's not all there is - what about Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials - the main character is a girl, a strong female character. LP is just the age to have read that as a child, it must be, apart from Harry Potter, the most famous children's fiction of the past 3 decades, fantasy, a genre she likes, and yet...puff!...it's like it doesn't exist.

I don't want to suggest that there aren't problems of sexism in children's fiction, both old and new, because there are. But even Disney princesses aren't that simple an experience for children however obvious the ideology looks to us. When I suggest that I don't like Disney princesses because there are more important things for women to do than just look pretty, my 5 year old looks confused and points out, rightly, that Snow White and Cinderella also work. From the point of view of a 5 year old the male characters don't do very much at all apart from sit on a horse.

But she omits anything that doesn't fit with whatever 'argument' she's getting paid for (on second glance looks more like 'I'm a real geek like you men geeks not a manic pixie dream girl' than a feminist argument) and in the process re-writes the experience of other women, just as she accuses men of doing.
 
always makes me laugh that the author was a Princeton PHD student who went on to lecture in philosophy.

while secretely yearning to churn out this really objectionable shit
 
here:

The Gor novels have been criticized for their focus on relationships between dominant men and submissive women, the latter often in positions of slavery. The Encyclopedia of Fantasy says, "later volumes degenerate into extremely sexist, sadomasochistic pornography involving the ritual humiliation of women, and as a result have caused widespread offence."[6][7] Science fiction/fantasy author Michael Moorcock has suggested that the Gor novels should be placed on the top shelves of bookstores, saying, "I’m not for censorship but I am for strategies which marginalize stuff that works to objectify women and suggests women enjoy being beaten."[8]
 
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