Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[J Ed]

think theres probably more to it than that also, which I'll try to articulate and probably fail. Theres a whole ideological narrative associated with this hard right economic program, a cultural as well as economic outlook closer to the rabid individualism of some american social narratives. To frame things soley in terms of personal responsibility does not exist merely to justify the cuts/neoliberal economics but is part of the mindset as a whole. One hand washes the other.

Do you mean that she talks about the cuts and austerity as attacks on individuals by nastier individuals without explaining why they are being implemented and who is benefiting from them? That is what I felt she was doing when I watched it the first time, the second time I realise it isn't quite that bad but it is pretty bad.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Capitalism isn't really attacking the social-wage in the richest countries either. (I mean it is doing that, but that's not really what capitalism is)

Yes lol I wonder if, when wages were increasing, she'd have thought it was a little bit communism?

You'd expect her to not know the first thing about capitalism though, what with being some kind of post-modernist identity politicker who thinks class is dead (even though she says she doesn't). But feminism's her 'thing' - so it's telling that her definition of patriarchy could make the most misogynistic teenager a feminist because he's sticking it to the man by not wearing his school tie or summat.

She's basically saying 'what patriarchy is, um, patriarchy is all the um like bad stuff that you um don't like.'

 

[SpineyNorman]

think theres probably more to it than that also, which I'll try to articulate and probably fail. Theres a whole ideological narrative associated with this hard right economic program, a cultural as well as economic outlook closer to the rabid individualism of some american social narratives. To frame things soley in terms of personal responsibility does not exist merely to justify the cuts/neoliberal economics but is part of the mindset as a whole. One hand washes the other.

if that makes any sense

something something hegemony

 

[J Ed]

A lot of people that talk about patriarchy don't seem to have a definition for it

 

[sihhi]

A lot of people that talk about patriarchy don't seem to have a definition for it

You could say the same for capitalism, imperialism, Islamophobia etc

Some help needed here on science fiction, Zoe Stavri posted this

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things

Especially do not ever suggest that people not take media “so seriously”, or argue that it’s “just” a tv show.

Secondly, do not gloss over the issues or derail conversations about the problematic elements. Okay, so you can admit that Dune is problematic. But wait, you’re not done! You need to be willing to engage with people about it! It’s not enough to be like “Ok, I admit that it’s problematic that the major villain is a fat homosexual rapist, but come on, let’s focus on the giant sandworms!”. Shutting people down, ignoring or giving minimal treatment to their concerns, and refusing to fully engage with their issues is a form of oppression. Implicitly, you’re giving the message that this person’s feelings are less important than your own. In fact, in this case you’re saying that their pain is less important than your enjoyment of a book, movie or tv show. So when people raise these concerns, listen respectfully and try to understand the views.

I'd never heard of Dune, but I don't get where the homophobia is even after googling.

I like things, and some of those things are problematic. I like Lord of the Rings even though it’s pretty fucked up with regard to women and race (any narrative that says “this whole race is evil” is fucked up, okay). I like A Song of Ice and Fire even though its portrayal of people of colour is problematic, and often I find that its in-text condemnation of patriarchy isn’t obvious enough to justify the sexism displayed. I like the movie Scott Pilgrim vs The World even though it is racist in its portrayal of Matthew Patel, panders to stereotypes in its portrayal of Wallace, and trivialises queer female sexuality in its portrayal of Ramona and Roxy’s relationship. For fuck’s sake, Ramona even says “It was a phase”! How much more cliche and offensive could this movie be?

In fact I don't know any of these things, but I don't get exactly what's being said.

Liking problematic things doesn’t make you an asshole. In fact, you can like really problematic things and still be not only a good person, but a good social justice activist (TM)!

Does this kind of leeway extend to hard classist interpretations of "intersectionality" and the like. Is it OK to like that? What about anti-immigration novels, are those beyond the pale? Is the Amanda Palmer band sexism OK?
Is this a green light for culturally appropriative art for white artists to wear Hindu bindis and Muslim headscarves as part of their critiquing or praise-giving art? What kind of manual is this? Or is it just for science fiction and fantasy - in which case what kind of movement needs a checklist on how to consume scifi and fantasy? I am confused. What is happening?

 

[DotCommunist]

The homophobia in dune comes precisely from God Emperor of Dune where Duncan Idaho (the ghola version) show intense disgust for the Fish Speaker cilt, an all-women band who are often engaged in saphic arts. Idaho is often taken as Frank Herberts 'Mary Sue' but I don't buty that interpretation. However, its the popular one from popular crits

 

[DotCommunist]

As for the thing about Baron Harkonnen being a homosexual rapist, thats a by-the-by. His vicious sadism is not about his homosexuality, his sadism is the point. And his sadism is on a grand scale

 

[DotCommunist]

To focus on Baron Harkonnens homosexuality is in fact to absolve his greater agency as a murderous bastard in charge of an entire dynasty devoted to cruelty, industrialism and slavery

 

[DotCommunist]

You could say the same for capitalism, imperialism, Islamophobia etc

Some help needed here on science fiction, Zoe Stavri posted this

http://www.socialjusticeleague.net/2011/09/how-to-be-a-fan-of-problematic-things






I'd never heard of Dune, but I don't get where the homophobia is even after googling.



In fact I don't know any of these things, but I don't get exactly what's being said.



Does this kind of leeway extend to hard classist interpretations of "intersectionality" and the like. Is it OK to like that? What about anti-immigration novels, are those beyond the pale? Is the Amanda Palmer band sexism OK?
Is this a green light for culturally appropriative art for white artists to wear Hindu bindis and Muslim headscarves as part of their critiquing or praise-giving art? What kind of manual is this? Or is it just for science fiction and fantasy - in which case what kind of movement needs a checklist on how to consume scifi and fantasy? I am confused. What is happening?

I would hazard I have read more feminist sci fi and could put together an 'appropriate' reading list for these cunts

 

[DotCommunist]

I like Lord of the Rings even though it’s pretty fucked up with regard to women and race

a banal truth, taken completely out of context. Tolkein was a total white academia bod of a bygone age. There was no agency to his talk of 'races' and characteristics attributed to them. Indeed its more to do with the drawing on older myths like the edda and so on that lends him to so. Not innate racism, he's a reactionry but not a bigot

 

[Idris2002]

The homophobia in dune comes precisely from God Emperor of Dune where Duncan Idaho (the ghola version) show intense disgust for the Fish Speaker cilt, an all-women band who are often engaged in saphic arts. Idaho is often taken as Frank Herberts 'Mary Sue' but I don't buty that interpretation. However, its the popular one from popular crits

Son, have you ever kissed a girl?

 

[DotCommunist]

he was from an era and strata that rarely encountered women outside of rigidly defined social roles. His contemporary in the Inklings writing circle CS Lewis always resented him marrying and betraying th boys own club. You want mysogny?? look to Lewis. Tolkien didn't hate women he just never knew how to be with anyone other than wife-matron-mother.

same for many of his time and class

 

[Idris2002]

I would hazard I have read more feminist sci fi and could put together an 'appropriate' reading list for these cunts

Would you agree that Russ' The Female Man doesn't build up to the same tension and catharsis as her short story, "When it changed"?

 

[DotCommunist]

Would you agree that Russ' The Female Man doesn't build up to the same tension and catharsis as her short story, "When it changed"?

not read it- is it considered cornerstone? I generally hit stuff as magpie

 

[Idris2002]

not read it- is it considered cornerstone? I generally hit stuff as magpie

I think it's considered the feminist SF novel - even more important than say, The Left Hand of Darkness.

 

[J Ed]

Interesting that the people in the comments section of that article are so intently discussing the demographics of the cast of Firefly, what's way more problematic about the program (even though I like it) is that it has a very right libertarian theme but that seems to completely pass them by.

The theme of Firefly is particularly odd because Whedon's Dollhouse has a very anti-corporate and imo left-wing message. Interviews with him leave me with the impression that he is a leftist.

 

[Idris2002]

Isn't Firefly (which I've not seen) meant to be basically the post-civil war American west, but in space?

 

[DotCommunist]

I think it's considered the feminist SF novel - even more important than say, The Left Hand of Darkness.

ah right, Left hand is le guin isn't it? I prefer her Earthsea stuff tbh


this was the last piece of fem. sci fi I read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Door_into_Ocean

last month. V. Good, if a bit 'ohh earth mother'

 

[DotCommunist]

Isn't Firefly (which I've not seen) meant to be basically the post-civil war American west, but in space?

considered to be o, I always took it as nameless frontierism in spaaaaace


never got on with it really. Hated the swashing of buckles. It's like the 90s never happened

 

[Idris2002]

Aye, and the frontierism is where the libertarianism comes in, I suppose.

 

[sihhi]

I would hazard I have read more feminist sci fi and could put together an 'appropriate' reading list for these cunts

My only half-knowledge on this kind of issue is Star Trek New Generation's anti-borg one with Picard has deeply unpleasant anti-communism tendencies, borg do not kill only assimilate why not submit and add to the collective treasury of communal knowledge. Borg seek an end to hierarchies like Guynan's planet but because Guynan is a black female the whole thing is played as white borg want to colonise/rape black females.

I've never seen an episode of the original series but that was genuinely pretty loaded with sexism even though it was 'liberal' on race apparently.

 

[J Ed]

Isn't Firefly (which I've not seen) meant to be basically the post-civil war American west, but in space?

More or less, I can't find it now but a while ago I came across fanfic that adapted it to a post Spanish Civil War story in space. Very weird!

 

[Idris2002]

My only half-knowledge on this kind of issue is Star Trek New Generation's anti-borg one with Picard has deeply unpleasant anti-communism tendencies, borg do not kill only assimilate why not submit and add to the collective treasury of communal knowledge. Borg seek an end to hierarchies like Guynan's planet but because Guynan is a black female the whole thing is played as white borg want to colonise/rape black females.

I've never seen an episode of the original series but that was genuinely pretty loaded with sexism even though it was 'liberal' on race apparently.

Aye, and while the other stars were on strong contracts, Nichelle Nichols was initially just paid from week to week.

 

[DotCommunist]

My only half-knowledge on this kind of issue is Star Trek New Generation's anti-borg one with Picard has deeply unpleasant anti-communism tendencies, borg do not kill only assimilate why not submit and add to the collective treasury of communal knowledge. Borg seek an end to hierarchies like Guynan's planet but because Guynan is a black female the whole thing is played as white borg want to colonise/rape black females.

I've never seen an episode of the original series but that was genuinely pretty loaded with sexism even though it was 'liberal' on race apparently.

It was liberal on race so long as James Tiberius Kirk could fuck it

 

[DotCommunist]

My only half-knowledge on this kind of issue is Star Trek New Generation's anti-borg one with Picard has deeply unpleasant anti-communism tendencies, borg do not kill only assimilate why not submit and add to the collective treasury of communal knowledge. Borg seek an end to hierarchies like Guynan's planet but because Guynan is a black female the whole thing is played as white borg want to colonise/rape black females.

I've never seen an episode of the original series but that was genuinely pretty loaded with sexism even though it was 'liberal' on race apparently.

Star Trek TNG is an intensely liberal show. This is why they often wring hands over utter barbarism and decide the Prime Directive does not allow intervention.

The borg are not a metaphor for communism. Theres way to much hive fever stuff, enemy within, co-option....well actually maybe they are

 

[sihhi]

The theme of Firefly is particularly odd because Whedon's Dollhouse has a very anti-corporate and imo left-wing message. Interviews with him leave me with the impression that he is a leftist.

Isn't he the guy who made Buffy the Vampire Slayer? I've never seen an episode but isn't that full of western unacknowledged colonialist mentality tropes playing with vampires and cultures who believe in the undead etc.

LP's fellow Oxford friend Roz Kaveney is an expert on all this:

Reading The Vampire Slayer - The New, Updated Unofficial Guide To Buffy And Angel (2001)
From Alien to the Matrix: Reading Science Fiction Film (2005)
Superheroes!: Capes and Crusaders in Comics and Films (2006)
Teen Dreams: Reading Teen Film and Television from 'Heathers' to 'Veronica Mars (2006)
Battlestar Galactica: Investigating Flesh, Spirit, and Steel (2010)
Nip/Tuck: Television That Gets Under Your Skin (2011)

 

[agricola]

Interesting that the people in the comments section of that article are so intently discussing the demographics of the cast of Firefly, what's way more problematic about the program (even though I like it) is that it has a very right libertarian theme but that seems to completely pass them by.

The theme of Firefly is particularly odd because Whedon's Dollhouse has a very anti-corporate and imo left-wing message. Interviews with him leave me with the impression that he is a leftist.

Its theme might be libertarian (though you could just as easily say its anarchist), but I fail to see how Firefly could ever be said to have a right-wing theme to it.

 

[Idris2002]

Its theme might be libertarian (though you could just as easily say its anarchist), but I fail to see how Firefly could ever be said to have a right-wing theme to it.

Moorcock's essay Starship Stormtroopers covers a lot of this:

http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/moorcock.html

Rugged individualism also goes hand in hand with a strong faith in paternalism -- albeit a tolerant and somewhat distant paternalism -- and many otherwise sharp-witted libertarians seem to see nothing in the morality of a John Wayne Western to conflict with their views. Heinlein's paternalism is at heart the same as Wayne's. In the final analysis it is a kind of easy-going militarism favoured by the veteran professional soldier -- the chain of command is complex -- many adult responsibilities can be left to that chain as long as broad, but firmly enforced, rules from 'high up' are adhered to. Heinlein is Eisenhower Man and his views seem to me to be more pernicious than ordinary infantile back-to-the-land Christian communism, with its mysticism and its hatred of technology. To be an anarchist, surely, is to reject authority but to accept self-discipline and community responsibility. To be a rugged individualist a la Heinlein and others is to be forever a child who must obey, charm and cajole to be tolerated by some benign, omniscient father: Rooster Coburn shuffling his feet in front of a judge he respects for his office (but not necessarily himself) in True Grit.

Was Heinlein's weird and creepy obsession with incest in some way connected to his right-libertarian politics?

 

[DotCommunist]

its great how we have finally hit my specialist subject in this thread

 

[DotCommunist]

Was Heinlein's weird and creepy obsession with incest in some way connected to his right-libertarian politics?

I think its the extreme end of libertarian thinking- not only are gov rules invalid but basic familial and social assumptions are to be disregarded for the brave new man