Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[treelover]

Remember the author of that piece is this guy:

I always thought Ned Flanders was an all American guy...

 

[DotCommunist]

whereabouts does it come on the progressive stack? and are you still oppressed if you've stopped using? (once you're an addict you're always an addict, it never goes away and you've got to fight it for evermore and all that jazz)

If a white addict and a black non-addict are talking about a black drug gang who needs to step back and check their privilege? Sounds like a fucking minefield to me.

at the back, robbing the coat pockets

 

[el-ahrairah]

Is drug addiction an oppression?

surely drug addiction is a symptom of oppression, if the addict is someone we approve of, or a fucking idiot if it is not?

 

[Idris2002]

It used to be that most drug addicts were doctors, who had ready access to mind-bending chemicals.

 

[SpineyNorman]

at the back, robbing the coat pockets

 

[SpineyNorman]

surely drug addiction is a symptom of oppression, if the addict is someone we approve of, or a fucking idiot if it is not?

[semi serious]if you're a recovering addict and people find out you do get treated differently, not trusted, treated like you're fragile and your mental state could disintegrate given the slightest push, etc etc so it could be seen as an oppression in and of itself[/semi serious]

 

[ViolentPanda]

whereas the difference between OCD sufferers and "normal" people is the fact that the normal people dont ascribe a special meaning to thoughts or actions, if for example a thought goes through their minds when on a train station telling them to push someone off a track, they will just ignore it rather than rushing back inside and thinking that they are scum and a terrible person. Like part of the treatment of OCD (which I don't really manage to follow most of the time, but when I do I end up relaxing and the months where I haven't had the illness had been some of the best months of my life tbh) is to completely ignore those thoughts and train your mind to not have such anxiety over it. rather than thinking "I've got this illness so I will do this" and like making a part of their identity outof it?

does that make sense? Like its still encouraging you to think of yourself as "different" rather than like accepting yourself as who you are, and accepting others? Like if you always think about the fact you're different from everyone else (something i have a hard time not doing, i'm always obsessing over the idea that I've upset someone or people don't like me, or beating up myself over some past incidence where I have worried too much and pissed everyone off) you're just going to worry and therefore make it worse if you see what I mean?

or am I talking bollocks?

No, you're not.
Some people attempt to address their issue(s) in the way you have done, by confronting them, and doing so carries a certain degree of risk that you'll relapse because you're at the "coal face" of your issue most of the time. It also happens to be the best way to lessen and eventually abandon your issue(s) over time.
There are other people with issues who very much live the culture of their issue(s) and live within the culture of their issues. people like mad-priders and deaf-priders make a conscious choice to operate within the culture of their issue and expect society to conform to their issues. While that's brave and forward-thinking, it's also a turning of the back on reaching accommodations with society on those issues, and does little to ameliorate or solve the issue if that's what someone wants. In fact I believe I mentioned on a disability thread last year that my mate's parents considered him somewhat of a "traitor" when he had ear surgery as a young adult after being brought up deaf by deaf parents.

 

[frogwoman]

like I really don't think that the problem with OCD is that i am "oppressed by society" by having it, I think the problem is the illness itself.

 

[el-ahrairah]

[semi serious]if you're a recovering addict and people find out you do get treated differently, not trusted, treated like you're fragile and your mental state could disintegrate given the slightest push, etc etc so it could be seen as an oppression in and of itself[/semi serious]

that is true. the biggest issue, for me, is the getting-a-job catch 22. do you admit it on the medical section of the application form? if not, and problems arise, pow you get sacked for not being honest. if you do, you never hear back from them.

similar to the mental health problems bind. i had one job where they actually invited people with MH problems to apply. i got the job, but the HR department wouldn't let me become a properly contracted member of staff because of my history of MH problems. so i spent 8 months knowing i could be let go with a week's notice if my mental health state wasn't good enough. which, as you can imagine, was a major fucking stress and made it less likely i could perform 'normally'.

e2a: is this oppression? well, it's capitalism.

 

[frogwoman]

I never put it down on the application form. you'd have to be a fucking idiot to.

 

[frogwoman]

Sucks but its a fact of life. it's capitalism, they value profits more than needs.

 

[ViolentPanda]

like I really don't think that the problem with OCD is that i am "oppressed by society" by having it, I think the problem is the illness itself.

Quite.

There's no doubt that people with such issues are somewhat oppressed by society, but that's not as relevant to the actual existing neurosis or psychosis that causes the issue as the person's own experience of the effects of their issue on them.

 

[frogwoman]

oh yeah definitely, with things like employment etc.

 

[SpineyNorman]

that is true. the biggest issue, for me, is the getting-a-job catch 22. do you admit it on the medical section of the application form? if not, and problems arise, pow you get sacked for not being honest. if you do, you never hear back from them.

similar to the mental health problems bind. i had one job where they actually invited people with MH problems to apply. i got the job, but the HR department wouldn't let me become a properly contracted member of staff because of my history of MH problems. so i spent 8 months knowing i could be let go with a week's notice if my mental health state wasn't good enough. which, as you can imagine, was a major fucking stress and made it less likely i could perform 'normally'.

e2a: is this oppression? well, it's capitalism.

Yeah I just don't tell anyone. It's a shame you can't though cos if we could it would help remove some of the stigma by showing that you can go on to lead a relatively 'normal' life, contribute to society etc. Instead all people see of addicts is the obvious and visible ones - ie. the ones who conform to the stereotypes. Which leads to some of the ignorant crap we've seen on these boards from time to time (and from one poster in particular who will remain nameless - he's not posted on this thread as far as I know)

Of course a similar point (to the one about it being capitalism - don't employ women they might get pregnant etc) could be made about most of not all oppressions - demonstrating the bankruptcy of identity politics.

 

[DotCommunist]

HE/FE places are sometimes better with the mental health issue. Not always obvs, but some actually recruit people with mh issues and give leeway for them. However, they are being cut to fuck anyway so look not there for work.

In general though, nobody admits to it on the form. Same with crim record, unless you'll be CRB'd you say nothing

 

[BigTom]

this neurotypical thing fucks me off somewhat, it's like only people with autism and aspergers have conditions that affect the way they look at the world, interact with other people, etc. What about someone like me who has a condition like OCD which is fine a lot of the time, but can pretty much leave you a shaking wreck who is obsessed with meaningless thoughts and convinced they have to do pointless rituals "in case" something bad happens, depending on how bad it is / what else is going on in your life? but other days can be fine?

Is that "neurotypical"? i dont think so

I feel kinda the same with clinical depression, definitely don't feel neurotypical. The term came about as a replacement for "normal" though with the connotation that Aspergers/ASD is abnormal rather than atypical which is an improvement imo. I think it'd be better if it evolved on into neurotypical/neuroatypical but who knows if it will.

 

[frogwoman]

I feel kinda the same with clinical depression, definitely don't feel neurotypical. The term came about as a replacement for "normal" though with the connotation that Aspergers/ASD is abnormal rather than atypical which is an improvement imo. I think it'd be better if it evolved on into neurotypical/neuroatypical but who knows if it will.

But it is normal to have, not aspergers/autism etc, but some sort of mental health problem, a learning disability, etc, even if you have it temporarily ad then never at all. Part of the reason why mental illnesses go untreated is because there is such a massive stigma about talking about it, people are not familiar with the symptoms, it is not seen as normal like a physical health condition might be (depending on what it is, or the severity).

 

[BigTom]

But it is normal to have, not aspergers/autism etc, but some sort of mental health problem, a learning disability, etc, even if you have it temporarily ad then never at all. Part of the reason why mental illnesses go untreated is because there is such a massive stigma about talking about it, people are not familiar with the symptoms, it is not seen as normal like a physical health condition might be (depending on what it is, or the severity).

I agree, nonetheless there used to be (and still is) a normal/ASD terminology/language split.

 

[J Ed]

 

[DotCommunist]

can't tube atm, is that ranting taxi driver?

 

[Delroy Booth]

It's gonna end with tragedy that Taxi Driver bloke. Saw this coming months ago.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's gonna end with tragedy that Taxi Driver bloke. Saw this coming months ago.

well he does have cancer

 

[Delroy Booth]

well he does have cancer

Not just that though, I think he's actually a pretty mentally vulnerable person. Sincere and decent and likable but with some problems. He used to follow me on twitter and he'd tweet me 40-50 times a day to promote his video's, sometimes with some really weird comments and non-sequiters. I even remember posting about it on here at the time coz it perturbed me. I thought he was having a nervous breakdown of some kind. Fuck knows what's going on but all the desperate self-promoting vultures are descending to feed on his modest internet meme status, Laurie Penny, Alex Jones, all the parasites. Watch this get worse.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Is it just me or is Laurie in that video not getting how capitalism works?

"What capitalism and austerity does right now is...it's not just an assault on people's wages, on people's physical economic standard of living, it's a psychic assault. It's not just enough to take people's money away, you have to point the finger and say 'You don't deserve that, you're scum, you're a scrounger, why aren't you working?'"

I wouldn't say the narrative is deliberate in terms of saying these things to be a big meanie, rather it's just the best way of justifying cuts, privatisation, etc.

 

[smokedout]

"What capitalism and austerity does right now is...it's not just an assault on people's wages, on people's physical economic standard of living, it's a psychic assault. It's not just enough to take people's money away, you have to point the finger and say 'You don't deserve that, you're scum, you're a scrounger, why aren't you working?'"

this frames the cuts as an issue of identity politics, look at the horrible things they are saying about this group, they should stop saying that stuff, then capitalism/austerity would be okay

 

[cesare]

this frames the cuts as an issue of identity politics, look at the horrible things they are saying about this group, they should stop saying that stuff, then capitalism/austerity would be okay

Most of what she was saying was framed in terms of identity politics + vague social justice (her version of anti capitalism) + "feminism"

 

[SpineyNorman]

The definition of patriarchy she gives definitely isn't the one that underpins what she says and writes - 'patriarchy is um it's like um what anarchists call the man' lol

 

[frogwoman]

I really hope not, I think the artist taxi driver is great and I'm a huge fan of his work.

 

[butchersapron]

The definition of patriarchy she gives definitely isn't the one that underpins what she says and writes - 'patriarchy is um it's like um what anarchists call the man' lol

Capitalism isn't really attacking the social-wage in the richest countries either. (I mean it is doing that, but that's not really what capitalism is)

 

[DotCommunist]

Is it just me or is Laurie in that video not getting how capitalism works?

"What capitalism and austerity does right now is...it's not just an assault on people's wages, on people's physical economic standard of living, it's a psychic assault. It's not just enough to take people's money away, you have to point the finger and say 'You don't deserve that, you're scum, you're a scrounger, why aren't you working?'"

I wouldn't say the narrative is deliberate in terms of saying these things to be a big meanie, rather it's just the best way of justifying cuts, privatisation, etc.

think theres probably more to it than that also, which I'll try to articulate and probably fail. Theres a whole ideological narrative associated with this hard right economic program, a cultural as well as economic outlook closer to the rabid individualism of some american social narratives. To frame things soley in terms of personal responsibility does not exist merely to justify the cuts/neoliberal economics but is part of the mindset as a whole. One hand washes the other.

if that makes any sense