Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[sihhi]

((((inter-sectional loving hearts)))))

What do you make of all this - a manual for the "able-bodied, neurotypical"

Anyone can accuse you of anything anonymously and you have to know what they are talking about and apologise as publicly as possible.

It will probably be anonymous, because these messages come from a place of feeling uncomfortable and unsafe. Respect that fact. Don’t jump to conclusions. Realize you are in a place of privilege. The above message whovianfeminism received is actually quite polite. It isn’t fun to hear that you’ve messed up, but the anon phrases it as an I-statement, making it about how they would feel if whovianfeminism did this one thing. This is great. When calling someone out, using effective communication strategies is awesome and helpful. However, if you are called out in a more rude, aggressive manner, you need to respect that anger. Their anger is rational. Their anger is a safety mechanism.

Note this phrase later on "how hard your privilege is".

With any luck, because you read this, you’ll apologize immediately and all will be well. Many able-bodied tumblr feminists and SJ warriors have done it before you like diversityinya. You’ll be in grand company and can continue to party it up in the cool intersectional feminist club.

Unfortunately, sometimes you’re going to mess up the first time. You’re going to be upset and defensive and rush into things. It is okay. You can still fix things. Here on tumblr, someone else will probably call you out on your fuck up. This is a good thing! It is your second chance! Embrace it!

Embrace the call out. It smells like intersectionality.

 

[frogwoman]

this neurotypical thing fucks me off somewhat, it's like only people with autism and aspergers have conditions that affect the way they look at the world, interact with other people, etc. What about someone like me who has a condition like OCD which is fine a lot of the time, but can pretty much leave you a shaking wreck who is obsessed with meaningless thoughts and convinced they have to do pointless rituals "in case" something bad happens, depending on how bad it is / what else is going on in your life? but other days can be fine?

Is that "neurotypical"? i dont think so

 

[frogwoman]

Just to be clear I'm not arguing for a special form of "privilege" based on OCD or not, that is actually the very worst thing you could probably do in terms of recovery from the illness. Like essentialising it and seeing it as part of your identity, something you will never be free of, just makes it worse (although seeing it as an illness which you can never get better from and yourself as therefore weak and helpless based on societys stigma's round mental health is just as bad).

 

[frogwoman]

And also isn't that sort of privilege/identity politics stuff just reinforcing social stigmas around mental health, for example few people realise that one in two people suffer from a mental health condition at some point in their lives and the proportion is probably closer to two out of two, but people never report it because they think it is not serious enough, because they are ashamed, etc.

 

[sihhi]

If it is any consolation to you frogwoman you fit as "neurodiverse" - the opposite of neurotypical - and hence move closer (based on your lack of privilege status) to the front of the progressive stack.

 

[frogwoman]

But in that case at least half the population are neurodiverse? Surely the idea is to reduce social stigma around mental illness, poor mental health etc (btw im not saying that autism/aspergers is a "mental illness" btw) but you know what i mean - so that it is seen as something that everyone can suffer from, that it is in actual fact extremely common, and people should not be ashamed to talk about it?

 

[JHE]

...obsessed with meaningless thoughts and convinced they have to do pointless rituals "in case" something bad happens, depending on how bad it is / what else is going on in your life?

...sounds like a description of religious belief and (patchy) observance...

 

[sihhi]

But in that case at least half the population are neurodiverse? Surely the idea is to reduce social stigma around mental illness, poor mental health etc so that it is seen as something that everyone can suffer from and people should not be ashamed to talk about it?

Those who have a privilege conception believe tearing away stigma does come from "calling out" the "shitty human being" who uses words like crazy or idiotic to describe stupid behaviour.

 

[frogwoman]

Those who have a privilege conception believe tearing away stigma does come from "calling out" the "shitty human being" who uses words like crazy or idiotic to describe stupid behaviour.

This is why I get pissed off at some of the forums about my illness and havent been on them for years, I think they can be useful for advice sometimes, but it is full of people talking about how awful they feel and why nobody understands them, and the guidelines of the forums often say that no reassurance is allowed (for things that people are worried over, because seeking reassurance is a compulsion, people ask for it over and over and over again to make sure that they haven't done anything wrong, for example annoyed people, and end up annoying people by doing it, so it goes on). but these forums are full of people seeking confirmation that they have not contaminated themselves, are not a sexual predator, aren't going to die or harm their family because they messed up a compulsion etc. I sometimes feel like it just enables it, and I felt like it really was not making me better, because every time I would just feel compelled to post on it and seek reassurance that something I had done didn't mean I was a terrible person or something, which is why I stopped going on them except when my illness is really really bad, but at the same time some of them almost seem like they sort of take pride in the fact they have it.

I hope that doesn't sound really wrong, but I honestly don't think all of this privilege stuff helps people recover from mental health problems. Obviously knowing the strategies to deal with it does, but like I feel worse when I am thinking about the fact that I will always have it and never get better from it and that sort of thing.

A bit off topic but I suppose it kind of fits in with what I am trying to say. I hope that doesn't sound really harsh.

 

[frogwoman]

whereas the difference between OCD sufferers and "normal" people is the fact that the normal people dont ascribe a special meaning to thoughts or actions, if for example a thought goes through their minds when on a train station telling them to push someone off a track, they will just ignore it rather than rushing back inside and thinking that they are scum and a terrible person. Like part of the treatment of OCD (which I don't really manage to follow most of the time, but when I do I end up relaxing and the months where I haven't had the illness had been some of the best months of my life tbh) is to completely ignore those thoughts and train your mind to not have such anxiety over it. rather than thinking "I've got this illness so I will do this" and like making a part of their identity outof it?

does that make sense? Like its still encouraging you to think of yourself as "different" rather than like accepting yourself as who you are, and accepting others? Like if you always think about the fact you're different from everyone else (something i have a hard time not doing, i'm always obsessing over the idea that I've upset someone or people don't like me, or beating up myself over some past incidence where I have worried too much and pissed everyone off) you're just going to worry and therefore make it worse if you see what I mean?

or am I talking bollocks?

 

[frogwoman]

Also there's also this idea that "we're special because we worry about this stuff so much, other people don't care about the fact that they might be paedophiles/might have contaminated peoples food/might have hurt everyone's feelings" and personally i think that it ... well it is still enabling it, because you're still promoting the idea that the fears the illness creates are things that everyone should worry about and like incorporating it into your worldview if you see what I mean.

 

[J Ed]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art/33588/Riot+cops+storm+Turkeys+Taksim+Square

There have been demonstrations across the country in solidarity with those in the Square and Park. Many have been awash with Turkish flags as Islamophobic nationalists have tried to inject the movement with their poison.

http://socialistworker.co.uk/art/33514/Turkeys+uprising+is+against+neoliberalism—not+‘Islamism’

Many of the nationalists want to see the army overthrow the elected government and carry out an Islamophobic purge.

 

[frogwoman]

oh my god you idiots

 

[sihhi]

The privilege stuff is meant to be directed outwards at people denying help for the mentally ill, but I suppose you're saying it can get to wearing the being underprivileged as a badge of honour.

I tend to think capitalism's normal functioning esp under Western neoliberalism can perpetuate mental neuroses (eg having to compete against 900 others for a part-time janitor job in a Ohio school, whilst having grown up with your dad in prison will prob mean mental health issues are more likely).
At the same time mental illness means it's harder for people to fight against capitalism.

LP's point is that people should concentrate on the mental hurt first
provide the (better) sanctuary for current socialists/leftists and from there,
capitalism can be overthrown via revolutionary socialism.
I disagree with it, but I'm not really competent to produce something more coherent so I've held off on that score.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah it's really hard to put together a critique of this stuff without it looking like you're saying that people have nothing wrong with them or whatever, which I'm not saying at all. Someone more capable than me needs to do it I guess!

 

[frogwoman]

The privilege stuff is meant to be directed outwards at people denying help for the mentally ill, but I suppose you're saying it can get to wearing the being underprivileged as a badge of honour.

I tend to think capitalism's normal functioning esp under Western neoliberalism can perpetuate mental neuroses (eg having to compete against 900 others for a part-time janitor job in a Ohio school, whilst having grown up with your dad in prison will prob mean mental health issues are more likely).
At the same time mental illness means it's harder for people to fight against capitalism.

LP's point is that people should concentrate on the mental hurt first
provide the (better) sanctuary for current socialists/leftists and from there,
capitalism can be overthrown via revolutionary socialism.
I disagree with it, but I'm not really competent to produce something more coherent so I've held off on that score.

Absolutely. But of course capitalism, a lot of the conditions of wage labour etc produces/worsens mental ill health. Worrying about money/housing, bad food, long hours, not enough sleep etc ...

 

[sihhi]

Oddly enough when police retook the Taksim square and the cultural centre the slogans were taken down and in their place came courtesy of police - a large Turkish flag an Kemal Ataturk portrait.

 

[frogwoman]

If it is any consolation to you frogwoman you fit as "neurodiverse" - the opposite of neurotypical - and hence move closer (based on your lack of privilege status) to the front of the progressive stack.

but how is it a privilege thing?

who benefits from people having OCD? (apart from pharmaceutical companies and counsellors lol)

 

[sihhi]

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art/33588/Riot cops storm Turkeys Taksim Square

Remember the author of that piece is this guy:

 

[sihhi]

who benefits from people having OCD? (apart from pharmaceutical companies and counsellors lol)

I think the broad line is:
Non-OCD people (privileged) want to keep OCD people (oppressed) down by denying that OCD is a problem, saying people with OCD always exaggerate stuff, and not letting them sort out their deeper issues.

 

[J Ed]

Oddly enough when police retook the Taksim square and the cultural centre the slogans were taken down and in their place came courtesy of police - a large Turkish flag an Kemal Ataturk portrait.

There are just so many assumptions here that I do not understand.

In order for the SWP to suggest that Turkish secularists are Islamophobic (and the government they oppose is a victim of Islamophobia) then surely we have to assume the following:

1) The SWP has taken a position on who is Muslim and decided that orthodox Sunni Islam is the correct form of Islam.
2) The SWP has also taken a position on who is not Muslim and decided that secularist Muslims are not Muslims, clearly millions of Muslims believe that you can be both Muslim and not wear the hijab, does the SWP disagree?
3) Erdogan's anti-Alevi sentiment is not Islamophobic?

 

[frogwoman]

sihhi Well, fair enough. But I've seen people on these forums tie themselves in knots with worry over the idea that they "don't really" have OCD and are just attention seeking or that their problems aren't bad enough to demand help etc, or for that matter about what "type" of OCD they have. And this sort of obsessive "privilege checking" could really become a problem when the aim should be to just accept who you are and not worry too much, or beat yourself up when you do worry (easier said than done, I know)

Just seems like a very unhealthy environment.

 

[frogwoman]

Like the whole idea that there are like different people, some who suffer from mental health problems and some who don't - i dunno. Obviously there are greater or lesser degrees of severity but I have met people who probably have even worse forms of the illness than I have who would probably never think to go to a doctor about it or try to get help. Like does someone who is officially diagnosed with an illness, are they over or underprivileged over someone who isn't diagnosed with it, or someone who diagnosed themselves? The whole thing just gets ridiculous (and sounds increasingly like an OCD obsession tbh)

 

[yield]

I tend to think capitalism's normal functioning esp under Western neoliberalism can perpetuate mental neuroses (eg having to compete against 900 others for a part-time janitor job in a Ohio school, whilst having grown up with your dad in prison will prob mean mental health issues are more likely).
At the same time mental illness means it's harder for people to fight against capitalism.

I think there's also something in how mental neuroses are categorized under capitalism?

That NASA is a sheltered workshop for people with autism and asperger syndrome, a surgeon might ocd about cleanliness and stock brokers are psychopaths?

 

[sihhi]

In order for the SWP to suggest that Turkish secularists are Islamophobic (and the government they oppose is a victim of Islamophobia) then surely we have to assume the following:

1) The SWP has taken a position on who is Muslim and decided that orthodox Sunni Islam is the correct form of Islam.
2) The SWP has also taken a position on who is not Muslim and decided that secularist Muslims are not Muslims, clearly millions of Muslims believe that you can be both Muslim and not wear the hijab, does the SWP disagree?
3) Erdogan's anti-Alevi sentiment is not Islamophobic?

Anti-Zoroastrian anti-athiest sentiment is stronger still.
PM on PKK guerrilla : "These terrorists have their place these are Zoroastrians. They talk about Yeziditi."

AKP regional chief on atheists about a month ago:

"The fact that these demented mentally diseased atheist types are still in my country and swearing at my religion makes my blood boil. These type of people who've been raped should be destroyed" (yok edilmeli)


SWP is repeating arguments which are now 15 years out of date.
De facto there's not a job in Turkey which is closed to hijab women that is also closed to non-hijab women (de jure the law exists but that's to make the government the victim), but there are jobs closed all to women eg the burgeoning state priesthood has to be male discrimination by its very nature.

Is anyone more opposed to accepting the Armenian genocide than the Islamists one or neofascists?
Smart Kemalists have always been able to divert the issue by saying Kemal was on the Western front fighting against British and mercenary Commonwealth imperialists and he supported executing people who went too far when marching Armenians (this was only because they were political opponents but there we are).
Islamists are unable to accept it because it means their idea of a 'religion of peace and harmony' and social contentment comes crashing down.
Neofascists likewise because it posits the idea of 'Turks' as not being pure so any concept of society based upon Turkism is blown out of the water.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Like the whole idea that there are like different people, some who suffer from mental health problems and some who don't - i dunno. Obviously there are greater or lesser degrees of severity but I have met people who probably have even worse forms of the illness than I have who would probably never think to go to a doctor about it or try to get help. Like does someone who is officially diagnosed with an illness, are they over or underprivileged over someone who isn't diagnosed with it, or someone who diagnosed themselves? The whole thing just gets ridiculous (and sounds increasingly like an OCD obsession tbh)

I think you accrue points for each year you went before diagnosis, after which a graduated point system is introduced that is linked to the type of treatment that is required. Higher dosages of meds means more points, but those with few side-effects are given a lower priority. Also, a person's DSM-IV scores may be used as a proxy measure of under-privilege (negatively offset for those that have better qualified therapists, of course).

 

[SpineyNorman]

Is drug addiction an oppression?

 

[agricola]

Is drug addiction an oppression?

Yes if its smack, no if its percocet.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes if its smack, no if its percocet.

whereabouts does it come on the progressive stack? and are you still oppressed if you've stopped using? (once you're an addict you're always an addict, it never goes away and you've got to fight it for evermore and all that jazz)

If a white addict and a black non-addict are talking about a black drug gang who needs to step back and check their privilege? Sounds like a fucking minefield to me.