Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[seventh bullet]

a friend of mine moved to latvia 'cause he wanted to move to russia but couldn't get a visa (journalist), and latvia is the closest he could get. everyone there speaks russian.

I never knew that.

However, Russian as a second language appears to be challenged over there, as love detective alluded to in his reply to me with the treatment of ethnic Russians. It was an interesting conversation with my co-worker, that they spoke Latvian (with being, like, Latvian) except in largely being crude, when vulgar Russian slang words are used. I didn't ask much about anti-Russian sentiment and xenophobia, which does exist.

I have no experience of Russian people, or others from former Soviet republics living in Russia, though. I have never been there, so I wouldn't really know what I am talking about.

 

[killer b]

Hm, not sure what that facepalm was aimed at, but it wasn't you. Was just adding to the conversation rather than trying to contradict you or something. Sorry!

 

[The39thStep]

Bloody hell, just had quite the twitter discussion with an intersectionalist. It was actually quite interesting in that she was willing to follow the logic of her own argument as far as arguing that men who agreed with her were exercising privilege by disagreeing with anti-feminist women. Even if they listened carefully first.

Dead end politics

 

[love detective]

I have no experience of Russian people, or others from former Soviet republics living in Russia, though. I have never been there, so I wouldn't really know what I am talking about.

 

[love detective]

Bloody hell, just had quite the twitter discussion with an intersectionalist. It was actually quite interesting in that she was willing to follow the logic of her own argument as far as arguing that men who agreed with her were exercising privilege by disagreeing with anti-feminist women. Even if they listened carefully first.

the very British idea that white men can, in the end, only speak for and from their own race & sex, into which they were born is something I encounter all the time, and makes me fearful for the future both of intelligent debate and socialist struggle in this country

 

[frogwoman]

The apology seems genuine. I'm reluctant to edit my posts altogether because that's how I felt about it; but I see the person says they feel unsafe about the gender specifics (if I understood that correctly) so I've made some edits which I hope are OK for them.

I hope you're feeling a bit less scared and anxious now froggie, and I hope the same for them too tbh.

i think it is genuine aye, hopefully that will be useful for them

 

[seventh bullet]

Hm, not sure what that facepalm was aimed at, but it wasn't you. Was just adding to the conversation rather than trying to contradict you or something. Sorry!

Sorry, was being an early morning grump.

 

[fractionMan]

Just found that blog, well one of it's many sub-blogs/re-blogs on tumblr. It's fucking awful. And now missing from tumblr as far as I can tell.

Can't see any sign of an apology though.

 

[fractionMan]

Jesus, I've never really paid much attention to all this intersectionality stuff beyond the twateratti but reading that makes me think it really is a bunch of self obsessed me me me I'm a victim point scoring lifestyle narcissistic bullshit.

Bleurgh. I need a bath.

 

[el-ahrairah]

intersectionality is important, because none of us are exploited or oppressed in one way. there are hierarchies of exploitation, as it were. it CAN be approached sensibly and sensitively and with a healthy class analysis. don't let the point-scoring identity politicians make you blind to the realities!

 

[fractionMan]

It's kind of self evident though isn't it? The fact that people can be black, gay, female, working class and/or disabled/whatever is hardly news.

 

[frogwoman]

Just found that blog, well one of it's many sub-blogs/re-blogs on tumblr. It's fucking awful. And now missing from tumblr as far as I can tell.

Can't see any sign of an apology though.

they apologised on my blog, it seems genuine from what I can tell.

 

[Dillinger4]

I used to go out with an Intersectionalist.

 

[butchersapron]

they apologised on my blog, it seems genuine from what I can tell.

Did the apology say

Sorry, now i know that you're one of us i will continue to direct the same attacks at others who aren't one of us but not at you.

If so, that maybe an apology, but it's not an understanding of what they did and why it was wrong/stupid/etc

 

[fractionMan]

You're part of the gang now froggy. +10 intersectionality points.

 

[fractionMan]

It just seems to be creating another tier of privilege tbh, those who understand and play this stupid game and those that don't. If you're not in the first then you're not worth listening to.

It's like the concept of the deserving poor but self applied. Pile of elitist wank.

 

[audiotech]

Having had a discussion with a woman recently with regards to her belief in the "new world order" and all things "conspiracy". I was informed that I didn't take her seriously because I'm a man and men are often irritated when a woman expresses a viewpoint and by implication it appeared I'm one of them. Err, I'm a man it is true I replied, it's just that I don't go along with your simplistic notions of "conspiracy theories" (by there very nature you can't prove them, which by that token makes it difficult for anyone to refute them), the ideas you are expressing about the illuminati and linking all that with Zionism, which to me sounds much like anti-Semitism. "Zionists are not Jews" she replied. Well yes some Zionists are not Jews, but Zionism was founded by secular Jews and significant numbers are in fact Jews. Apparently, she paid money to see David Icke and when I questioned her on the lizard idea being professed by Icke she shifted (not "shape shifted") somewhat and said a friend of hers would be able to explain better than her. Oh I said.

 

[el-ahrairah]

It's kind of self evident though isn't it? The fact that people can be black, gay, female, working class and/or disabled/whatever is hardly news.

of course. but people aren't always very good at remembering that.

 

[butchersapron]

It just seems to be creating another tier of privilege tbh, those who understand and play this stupid game and those that don't. If you're not in the first then you're not worth listening to.

It's like the concept of the deserving poor but self applied. Pile of elitist wank.

As noted above, it can only be useful to recognise internal cleavages and not pretend that we're all in the same situation - the failure to do that is one reason why the the left has such little social weight in the working class, as it so often substituted the political views of their middle class strata for class needs on the basis that the class is united (and united around what they say). But when you turn that demand for recognition into a personal invidualised form of relentless attack it becomes unhelpful and is deeply deeply unpolitical - or post-political, a sign of utter defeat (despite the people who do this thinking of themselves as intensely political). This from Kenan Malik last week puts the context of this in a nutshell:

One of the key shifts over the past three decades has been disenchantment with the idea of social transformation, and the decline of organizations for collective social change. As a result people have begun to view themselves and their social affiliations in a different way. Social solidarity has become increasingly defined not in political terms – as collective action in pursuit of certain political ideals – but in terms of ethnicity or culture. The question people ask themselves are not so much ‘What kind of society do we want to live in?’ as ‘Who are we?’. The first question looks forward for answers and defines them in terms of the commonality of values necessary for establishing the good life. The second generally looks back and seeks answers – and defines identity – in terms of history and heritage. The politics of ideology, in other words, has given way to the politics of identity.

 

[el-ahrairah]

It just seems to be creating another tier of privilege tbh, those who understand and play this stupid game and those that don't. If you're not in the first then you're not worth listening to.

It's like the concept of the deserving poor but self applied. Pile of elitist wank.

yes, exactly. what they have done is taken a generally good theory and used it to decide that a) they are more oppressed than you (which is fine when i, as a working class white man am talking to e.g a working class black woman, but not so good when i am talking to an upper middle class woman with an oxbridge education and a decent establishment job), and b) that a class analysis is no longer needed (because fuck the working classes or because class analysis means that said upper middle class woman is no longer more oppressed than working class white man and can no longer lord it over them via oppression olympics).

fucking fucks.

 

[el-ahrairah]

also, on another thread i read a post suggesting that the reason someone didn't do conspiracy theories was because they were white. the subtext being that if they weren't they'd understand that there are conspiracies. i wonder if there is an identity appeal regarding conspiracy theories. has anyone been to an icke show and can comment on the apparent ethnic makeup of the audience?

 

[butchersapron]

also, on another thread i read a post suggesting that the reason someone didn't do conspiracy theories was because they were white. the subtext being that if they weren't they'd understand that there are conspiracies. i wonder if there is an identity appeal regarding conspiracy theories. has anyone been to an icke show and can comment on the apparent ethnic makeup of the audience?

There was some discussion here on this from this post onwards a while back.

 

[frogwoman]

you take fucking responsibiltiy for what you say, i don't go around saying to people that it's fine for someone to come out with anti palestinian and anti muslim shit and conspiracy theories because they're jewish. understand what makes someone say that sort of thing yes, understand why zionism becomes an attractive option for people, but never say things like "oh it's fine because they're a disadvantaged group". you've got to ask why that viewpoint is getting support but never excuse it! why would somebody use the fact they're a woman to excuse the fact they are racist, it doesn't make any sense. why the fuck would you do it?

and if you think about what she is saying audiotech it's still saying that only white christian men can have any kind of realistic perspective on world events and if anyone else is wrong then they can't help it!

 

[el-ahrairah]

There was some discussion here on this from this post onwards a while back.

cheers

 

[audiotech]

From what I've seen of the ethic make-up of Icke's audience, on YouTube at least, it is overwhelmingly white.

 

[frogwoman]

i find it incredibly patronising the idea that just because i'm a woman it means that it's allowed for me to say racist shit. Those poor dears they dont know any better.

 

[fractionMan]

yes, exactly. what they have done is taken a generally good theory and used it to decide that a) they are more oppressed than you (which is fine when i, as a working class white man am talking to e.g a working class black woman, but not so good when i am talking to an upper middle class woman with an oxbridge education and a decent establishment job), and b) that a class analysis is no longer needed (because fuck the working classes or because class analysis means that said upper middle class woman is no longer more oppressed than working class white man and can no longer lord it over them via oppression olympics).

fucking fucks.

Skipping the whole part about inherited privilege is pretty convenient for the (afaik largely middle class) advocates of this.

 

[fractionMan]

As noted above, it can only be useful to recognise internal cleavages and not pretend that we're all in the same situation - the failure to do that is one reason why the the left has such little social weight in the working class, as it so often substituted the political views of their middle class strata for class needs on the basis that the class is united (and united around what they say). But when you turn that demand for recognition into a personal invidualised form of relentless attack it becomes unhelpful and is deeply deeply unpolitical - or post-political, a sign of utter defeat (despite the people who do this thinking of themselves as intensely political). This from Kenan Malik last week puts the context of this in a nutshell:

Cheers for the link. I just typed out a reply to this but lost it.

I get the need to see we're not all in the same situation, it's vital imo to reach a common goal.

The problem is that where it should be about people looking outwards, about empathy, understanding, co-operation & commanality it's become about looking inwards, about divisions, projection, individuals and isolation.

Depressing stuff.

 

[frogwoman]

You're part of the gang now froggy. +10 intersectionality points.

to be honest i just hope they learn something from it.

 

[phildwyer]

From what I've seen of the ethic make-up of Icke's audience, on YouTube at least, it is overwhelmingly white.

He's getting quıte well known ın Turkey. I got told off the other day by one of hıs fans for lettıng my 3 year-old play wıth dınosaurs.