Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[J Ed]

if i was being beaten in an arguement it wouldn't even occur to me to say "yeah but i'm a woman you should listen to me" wtf?

i mean actually wtf?

More common I think is intersectionalistas just outright refusing to discuss or debate their ideas

 

[ViolentPanda]

intersectionality is important, because none of us are exploited or oppressed in one way. there are hierarchies of exploitation, as it were. it CAN be approached sensibly and sensitively and with a healthy class analysis. don't let the point-scoring identity politicians make you blind to the realities!

Problem being that for some of these proponents it's about intersectionality as marker(s) of difference only, not intersectionality as a marker of commonality.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's kind of self evident though isn't it? The fact that people can be black, gay, female, working class and/or disabled/whatever is hardly news.

Yeah, but for some people, all that is, is a series of high scores on a game of Top Trumps, rather than individual facets of a cohesive self-identity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

it all seems a re-run of the 80's, at the local bookfair here at the weekend, one could even sense this growing move amongst activists, plenty wearing t-shirts with such slogans on.

Problem is, most of the people who are biting on this stuff were either kids in the '80s, or not even born, so they don't have any memory of how badly the turn to identity politics affected the development and furtherance of non-identity-based forms of politics.

 

[J Ed]

Yeah, but for some people, all that is, is a series of high scores on a game of Top Trumps, rather than individual facets of a cohesive self-identity.

How *aware* of this are they?

 

[ViolentPanda]

is there any particular reason why this bastardised form of identity politics is growing? is it just that all political awareness is growing, as in the 80's or something different

ffs, people are committing suicide because of cuts, and this is growing?

It's pretty much the "right time" for a form of politics that some people can reduce to "me me me", which is one of the reasons why it's growing.

 

[cesare]

Problem is, most of the people who are biting on this stuff were either kids in the '80s, or not even born, so they don't have any memory of how badly the turn to identity politics affected the development and furtherance of non-identity-based forms of politics.

Yes. And I've noticed that they don't even give credit where it is due for some of what was achieved (which can get passed over in the well deserved criticism of the worst of it). It's as if they're discovering it as new.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

is there any particular reason why this bastardised form of identity politics is growing? is it just that all political awareness is growing, as in the 80's or something different

ffs, people are committing suicide because of cuts, and this is growing?

Maybe its because a lot of SWP types are pretty posh, and its slightly embarrassing to watch them go on about 'The Workers' and 'The Proletariat' etc? Liberal middle-class lefties distancing themselves from class-based analysis because patronising upper-class lefties have taken it upon themselves to be the vanguard? I don't know really.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How *aware* of this are they?

That's a very good question.
We tend to take up "left" political positions for explicitly altruistic reasons, but that doesn't, of course, mean that there aren't underlying self-serving elements to such a position, even unconsciously self-serving elements.

I know that doesn't answer your question, but I don't think it can be answered, except on an individual-by-individual basis. Motivations and therefore awareness will differ.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I got told off the other day by one of hıs fans for lettıng my 3 year-old play wıth dınosaurs.

I fucking love playing with dinosaurs.. err, I mean I used to love playing with dinosaurs.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hah, you wait until the lizards take over and see how far your fucking "mammal privilege" gets you then

Shoved in a feed bin along with the other mammals?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The thing is fwics (not really involved) women becoming more prevalent and yes, high profile, in left politics is happening, has been happening organically, I would say that at least 60% of the stalls at the bookfair were personed by women

"Personed".

"Staffed" is non-sexist enough, surely?

 

[chilango]

"Personed".

"Staffed" is non-sexist enough, surely?

No. That's a phallocentric term if I ever saw one!

 

[butchersapron]

Universities have for some decades now been encouraging students to think of themselves as commodities, to find the best way that they can sell themselves. This seems to have seeped through into the uni-based political students (and those who still are yet to leave that milieu years fucking later) who - in the absence of a directly and immediately effective social movement - politically have nothing to sell but their identity. I think there's a fair degree of deliberate manipulation by middle class uni-groupies of the alienation that many young people from non-middle class or non-white backgrounds etc may feel on entering the university as well. And they are getting away with it. That said, none of this stuff has ever been mentioned by a single person to me outside of on here. No one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

like if someone pulled me up for being racist or whatever i'd be horrified, because to me being racist is one of the worst things you can be. i always try to make sure that i'm not generalising my experiences to anyone else or whatever and i do try and listen to what people say. i dont always succeed though. I don't understand the reaction that says "yeah but you're not listening to me because i'm a woman" (or whatever) when somebody gets pulled up on something to do with privileges that THEY need to check if you see what I mean.

Well, some people who go on what are basically old-fashioned "moral crusades" for the internet age, aren't very reflexive. It doesn't occur to them that when they're telling you to check your privilege, that they could be exerting privilege over you, that they need to and should check theirs. I'm not sure any modern political ideology openly supports self-criticism, to be fair.

 

[chilango]

Universities have for some decades now been encouraging students to think of themselves as commodities, to find the best way that they can sell themselves. This seems to have seeped through into the uni-based political students (and those who still are yet to leave that milieu years fucking later) who - in the absence of a directly and immediately effective social movement - politically have nothing to sell but their identity. I think there's a fair degree of deliberate manipulation by middle class uni-groupies of the alienation that many young people from non-middle class or non-white backgrounds feel on entering the university as well. And they are getting away with it. That said, none of this stuff has ever been mentioned by a single person to me outside of on here. No one.

That's echoed elsewhere.

Brand me. Me.com etc. etc.

Personal, individual branding is heavily pushed as how to fit into the labour market. Further eroding collective class consciousness.

 

[butchersapron]

That's echoed elsewhere.

Brand me. Me.com etc. etc.

Personal, individual branding is heavily pushed as how to fit into the labour market. Further eroding collective class consciousness.

Job-seekers being forced to do self-work (paid for by themselves) - people in computer/IT stuff having to do 'self-work' (i.e upgrade skills, paid for by themselves)...on and on...individual against individual...

 

[chilango]

Yep.

 

[two sheds]

And kids being told how essential it is to study (which I agree with) and go to uni to make anything of themselves. So they do study and get a degree and when they've done that and look for a job they're told they have 'too high expectations'.

 

[sihhi]

Does anyone remember Lambeth Council's attempts for fulfilling its 3% quota of disabled people whilst cutting spending (except for executives and race advising - courses depending on who you believe)?

The jobs were unfilled for about a year (less spending, meeting Thatcher's cuts, not resisting them, Ted Kinght had been kicked out) - needed to have competitive interviews etc. And when the quota was fulfilled (350 disabled out of 10,000) many of the disabilities were mild hearing associated ones. To ensure this policy could be effected, jobs in its in house construction department (ie mostly male, minority Irish and minority black) were cut (complying with Thatcher Department of Housing circulars to build no more council homes).

Question to all posters:

The Journal of the Haringey Disability Association, HDA Journal Number 17, Dec 1986. HDA was a part council-funded liberation group. It has over a page of definitions for a small paper+staple-sheet for members of the public. Some are fine absolutely necessary then, but some almost naggingly prescriptive.

A section under it titled 'Disabled Lesbians and Gays' has:

Lesbian & Gays - collective term used throughout this journal referring to all lesbians and gays. The word lesbian should always [underlined in pen in the original] precede gay to emphasise the existence of lesbians within the movement and to counteract the marginalisation of women.

Nothing wrong with that in a handbook for non-sexist writing, but in a journal for the public its subtext is almost hinting to the non-lesbians and non-disabled non-intersection 'say it right or go home'.
Is this just over-analysing it? After all clarity in language is useful and English as a gendered language has its problems, and female homosexuals shouldn't be ignored in favour of male homosexuals. Am I being too harsh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Monetise your hotness/weaponize your identity.

Two sides of the same (individual) coin.

A bloody counterfeit coin at that.

 

[Greebo]

The thıng ıs, about 50% of what he says make total sense--the stuff about pharmaceutıcal companıes delıberately addıctıng people <snip> and the next thıng I know he's talkıng about how ıf you stare at a stone for 48 hours you begın to see what's really there, and I'm thınkıng ''I reckon thıs bloke's a nutter...''

He sounds like the type of conspiraloon commonly found on some fringes of the Pagan/Alternative/New Age scene about 20 years ago. Sooner or later they were bound to go mainstream, even in Turkey. Tbh I'm shocked that you're shocked.

 

[cesare]

I don't think you're being too harsh sihhi and it's a good example. I should see if my mum has kept any of the ridiculous stuff that used to come out from Tower Hamlets in the 80s.

 

[TopCat]

Can someone summarise this thread please?

 

[sihhi]

Can someone summarise this thread please?

I don't wholly understand what's gone in the past dozen or so pages either.

Do you remember Linda Bellos? Is what I wrote about the '3% of all Lambeth council workers to be disabled' quota wrong?

 

[J Ed]

Universities have for some decades now been encouraging students to think of themselves as commodities, to find the best way that they can sell themselves. This seems to have seeped through into the uni-based political students (and those who still are yet to leave that milieu years fucking later) who - in the absence of a directly and immediately effective social movement - politically have nothing to sell but their identity. I think there's a fair degree of deliberate manipulation by middle class uni-groupies of the alienation that many young people from non-middle class or non-white backgrounds feel on entering the university as well. And they are getting away with it. That said, none of this stuff has ever been mentioned by a single person to me outside of on here. No one.

IME, the students who hang around campus politics long after they have graduated seem to be the worst for this.

 

[el-ahrairah]

Can someone summarise this thread please?

Reasons Why Liberals Must Be Strangled.

 

[J Ed]

It's not surprising that identity politics is being used to channel frustrations, I think that's being done in a similar way to the way in which fascism was/is used to explain away problems that are a result of austerity. It's far easier to understand your poor lot in life as being a result of oppression by men, Zionists, heterosexuals, whites (including the white working-class even if you're black and middle-class) and so on.

 

[TopCat]

I really meant it asking for a summary. I have never dipped into this thread before. I can't get my head around what the fuck it's about.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does anyone remember Lambeth Council's attempts for fulfilling its 3% quota of disabled people whilst cutting spending (except for executives and race advising - courses depending on who you believe)?

The jobs were unfilled for about a year (less spending, meeting Thatcher's cuts, not resisting them, Ted Kinght had been kicked out) - needed to have competitive interviews etc. And when the quota was fulfilled (350 disabled out of 10,000) many of the disabilities were mild hearing associated ones. To ensure this policy could be effected, jobs in its in house construction department (ie mostly male, minority Irish and minority black) were cut (complying with Thatcher Department of Housing circulars to build no more council homes).

Question to all posters:

The Journal of the Haringey Disability Association, HDA Journal Number 17, Dec 1986. HDA was a part council-funded liberation group. It has over a page of definitions for a small paper+staple-sheet for members of the public. Some are fine absolutely necessary then, but some almost naggingly prescriptive.

A section under it titled 'Disabled Lesbians and Gays' has:



Nothing wrong with that in a handbook for non-sexist writing, but in a journal for the public its subtext is almost hinting to the non-lesbians and non-disabled non-intersection 'say it right or go home'.
Is this just over-analysing it? After all clarity in language is useful and English as a gendered language has its problems, and female homosexuals shouldn't be ignored in favour of male homosexuals. Am I being too harsh?

I'd say it is over-analytical, but given the date it's also an attempt (at the "infancy" of the mainstreaming of identity politics in the UK) to define the scope of the issue at a time when the language around identity was a fair bit more amorphous.