Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Delroy Booth]

Oh god please tell me the welfare game is still available

 

[Bun]

That is god like.

 

[Nice one]

Well there's a risk that by focussing on Laurie that it will look like bullying, secondly Laurie and her peer group are some of the most prominent people of 'the left' in mainstream media. The result is that people's perception of the left is that of privileged liberals with no real substance.

what people? Who?

 

[phildwyer]

There's an argument to be had that those experiencing oppression of one form or another, alien to the person who may have inadvertently supported that oppression, doesn't have to educate or inform when highlighting that contribution to that oppression

No there isn't.

You probably mean that there's an argument to be had that aliens experiencing persons of one form or another wouldn't have to educate, inform or otherwise address in any way those who may (or may not) have inadvertantly supported the kind of contribution to the oppression in the present.

But I don't think there is one of those either.

 

[Bakunin]

1. Serial Killer: the board game

​

This extremely grim affair was created by serial killer enthusiast Tobias Allen in the early 90s and was quickly banned in Canada. The board game was packaged in a body bag and the objective was to kill as many people (originally babies until Mr Allen realised he may have pushed it a bit far) and ensuring capture by police only took place in U.S. states without the death penalty. Unsurprisingly the game is now (officially at least) unavailable to buy.

 

[Balbi]

As far as I can see, intersectional feminism is basically feminism that considers all second wave stuff as done, criticises the majority of feminists for being too white, rich and eurocentric. Instead it should include women of colour, women from non-western backgrounds, differently abled, trans women and women who don't fit into those categories.

Because if anyone is left behind, feminism is oppressing.

It's a bit like a cool new gang, who criticise everyone else for being in a gang - even if some of them have actually made great steps in community engagement and progress. Because it doesn't meet their standards. I suspect the majority of those trashing feminism as a white middle class womens movement are white middle class women, and have an intersectional theory based view on all of the work that feminism has done involving all of the groups highlighted above.

What's a bit odd is that lots, not all, feminist groups are open to all women. There's the usual grumbling argument over trans women, but you don't resolve that by declaring the argument to be oppressive. And by highlighting the multiple forms of oppression that a black woman might suffer over a white woman, you can make people aware of the different struggles within a movement - but how does that translate into action?

And where, where is any analysis of class beyond the idea that feminism is just a rich western white girls game?

Reductionist, leading to absurdity and broad brush dismissal of complex and hard fought for gains.

 

[Balbi]

http://crunkfeministcollective.word...ealia-banks-and-white-gay-cis-male-privilege/

Then I read this, and just get lost in the stacking cups nature of the argument. Well, as she's got less privilege and more oppression, what she said WASN'T homophobic but an assertion of herself using the language of oppression. Wait, what the fuck? That's the hierarchy of oppression right there.

 

[Steel Icarus]

White gay cis men have cultural access to the bodies of black women and blackfemmes, cultural access that black women and black femmes do not have in relation to white gay cis male bodies. This cultural access allows white gay cis men to caricature black femininities, through mannerisms and voice intonations, as rambunctiously depraved and outlandish. It is a form of ontological mockery that reinforces dehumanizing narratives and racist tropes about black femininities. Perez Hilton, who personifies a homonormative politic, has systematically tapped into the cultural access to which I refer at various points in his career

Haven't got a fucking clue what a lot of that even means, to be honest

 

[frogwoman]

what the fuck is an "anti-oppression practitioner"?

 

[weepiper]

what the fuck is an "anti-oppression practitioner"?

 

[frogwoman]

I suppose this means the next time I play a club match it will mean that if I lose I will have won anyway because the opponent has the privilege of being better at chess than I am

 

[Captain Hurrah]

They're all speaking in a language I don't understand.

 

[nino_savatte]

what the fuck is an "anti-oppression practitioner"?

Pretty similar to a dissent entrepreneur (or whatever that schmuck, Peters, calls himself), one would imagine.

 

[Athos]

I suppose this means the next time I play a club match it will mean that if I lose I will have won anyway because the opponent has the privilege of being better at chess than I am

Are you playing black or white?

 

[Belushi]

I suppose this means the next time I play a club match it will mean that if I lose I will have won anyway because the opponent has the privilege of being better at chess than I am

Oppression is inherent in a game where White always goes first

 

[Athos]

They're all speaking in a language I don't understand.

Shibboleth. These people make their living speaking to each other like this. If anyone could do, they'd be out of a job. Not least of all becase it would quickly be shown up as Emperor's New Clothes stuff.

 

[weepiper]

http://crunkfeministcollective.word...ealia-banks-and-white-gay-cis-male-privilege/

Then I read this, and just get lost in the stacking cups nature of the argument. Well, as she's got less privilege and more oppression, what she said WASN'T homophobic but an assertion of herself using the language of oppression. Wait, what the fuck? That's the hierarchy of oppression right there.

I guess saying 'they were both being dicks' wouldn't get enough attention.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Oppression is inherent in a game where White always goes first

 

[Steel Icarus]

I guess saying 'they were both being dicks' wouldn't get enough attention.

Or cunts. Hang on. I mean silly-billies.

 

[Athos]

Oppression is inherent in a game where White always goes first

What about the White Queen v the Black King. You've overlooked the intersectionality.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

What about the Black Queen v the White King. You've overlooked the intersectionality.

surely vice versa?

 

[Athos]

surely vice versa?

Fuck, that lost a bit in the execution, didn't it?!

My wife's gone to Jamaica.... Bugger!

Have edited it now, though.

 

[Balbi]

Haven't got a fucking clue what a lot of that even means, to be honest

Basically, because gay men use the language of black women and stereotypes in parody etc (like saying 'daaaayum', talking of baby mama's and other stereotypes) and black women don't do that (apparently) about gay men (which I have a whole set of problems with, because they do). The use of stereotypes of black women and black femmes is dehumanising etc

And Perez Hilton, whose blog I am aware of in the same way I am aware of drains, has used this language and caricatures in his self promotion. And he's homonormative, sort of the acceptable face of gayness. So he's used those stereotypes, and gay men use those stereotypes in their speech. And it's a one way street, because black women and femmes don't have access to white gay male cis stereotypes and ontological stuff. Which is wrong, because they do.

I do like how within minutes someone's pointed out that under the definition of the writer, Hilton's actually not white - he's latino/cuban. But he gets a pass into white privilege anyway apparently because of his power, stemming from the blog. It shows up the problem with having to label every part of someone's identity, and consider every element of their person before determining the oppressor/oppressed dynamic - because the minute you get it wrong, you're excluding an element and contributing to their oppression. Also interesting to see how a black disabled queer anti-oppression activist managed to assume Hilton was white. Not very intersectional of you chap.

It also means you have to break down everyone's actions by their identity, and in this case excuse the oppressed's actions. Azaelia Banks was wrong here, like Suzanne Moore was wrong with her lopping bits off comments. But the author's excused her behaviour by relating it to a struggle and context that couldn't have been further from Banks' mind when she tweeted that Hilton was a 'messy faggot'.

Sometimes a 'fuck you' isn't indicative of a pre-eminent rape culture. And a cigar's for smoking.

 

[Balbi]

I guess saying 'they were both being dicks' wouldn't get enough attention.

Misandryist, transphobic, misogynyst. This game is easy, but rubbish.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

I've got a headache.

 

[weepiper]

Misandryist, transphobic, misogynyst. This game is easy, but rubbish.

You missed out homophobe.

 

[Balbi]

Shit.

*wanders off to the intersectional naughty step*

Also, weirdly - I sort of get their arguments, I can follow them and see what they're doing. I just think they're wrong. You can spend hours chasing your tail on it though. Take that discussion - Banks apologised for anyone being indirectly offended by her comments, and GLAAD (No, not from Portal) took her to task over her comments - and it was resolved.

But with intersectionality, the arguments can never stop - and action can never start.

 

[Greebo]

Haven't got a fucking clue what a lot of that even means, to be honest

Black women be they straight or not, are more frequently portrayed in culture (including the media) than white gay men, therefore it's easier for a white gay man to convincingly drag up as a black woman than the other way around.

 

[Athos]

Shit.

*wanders off to the intersectional naughty step*

Also, weirdly - I sort of get their arguments, I can follow them and see what they're doing. I just think they're wrong.

Your negative use of the word 'step' betrays your nulcear-familynormativeness. Check your privilege!

 

[Balbi]

Black women be they straight or not, are more frequently portrayed in culture (including the media) than white gay men, therefore it's easier for a white gay man to convincingly drag up as a black woman than the other way around.

Somone's not seen White Chicks.