Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Firky]

trigger warning = the (usually linked) content has stuff about rape/abuse/whatever that might trigger emotional reactions from bad memories / anxiety or ptsd type problems for people who have experienced similar traumatic events so they don't read it / are prepared for reading it before they do.

Thanks, so it's like the a warning. That's fair enough I guess, not one I'd choose to heed: I prefer to confront my fears and anxieties than avoid them, but it is hard to do sometimes. Especially when the most seemingly innocent things can spark something off.

The Neon Roberts affair resonated quite loudly with me. Watching the news and all of a sudden a massive smack to the face with a sledge-hammer.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And then have to apologise to her again like the last time

Fuck off

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Yes, you're right she does have a sense of entitlement. And it is that entitlement that was being challenged on this thread. It just feels more shaky than solid to me. Anyway, I'm not able to convey what I mean because it comes from a sense of her, which may be wrong, and doesn't really alter anything politically anyway.

I just can't get over how small she seems in comparison to the attacks on us. Here in Brum the council are closing down 5 children's homes with the lie that it's better for them to be in foster homes despite there not being enough foster homes available for them to go to. Some of the most vulnerable children in our society are going to lose their home (however imperfect) and this upsets and angers me so much and makes me feel so powerless.....and Laurie Penny just seems so irrelevant.

Well yeah..she is irrelevant, or should be, but she has been accorded this special status by the msm either from laziness (simply because she looks the part and writes like an angry student and already has a profile-largely thanks to her background) or because she suits everybody's purpose (noisy but ultimately political incompetent and toothless; a focus for righteous but aimless indignation; a posturing stunt-pulling naïf)

I think she feels this pseudo-status she's been granted entitles her to a special hearing, particularly on the left. That there are huge sections of the left who consider her a useful idiot seems to dismay her. But rather than trying to understand why she prefers to blithely dismiss them as unreconstructed 70s sitcom characters wallowing in unexamined privilege, racism and sexism...which is basically patronising, lazy and intellectually dishonest.

As to the vulnerability which you seem to sense, I agree. She sometimes strikes me as a bit flaky. I'm sure I've even seen her say somewhere that her online persona was originally adopted and modelled on a riot grrl cartoon character and bore little relation to the real her. It may be that she's taken the whole thing too far and possibly the character has taken over and led her to say and do things 'in character' that don't really apply in reality. Perhaps it's time for her to rein it all in a bit, try some serious journalism and start reporting some objective facts instead of a per-ordained self-serving narrative. I think that way, the criticism might stop and, with it, any danger of a melt down.

 

[SpineyNorman]

If LP's inextricable work/self-presentation serves the interests of capital, for example as a star/celebrity journalist/personality cult for people to silently hand over their agency to, this seems like deciding that capital is allowed to operate in personal dimensions, to humanise and disguise itself, but we're going to censor ourselves from talking about it as such.

The impression of familiarity (eg bedroom photo) is a vital disguise technique used to sell music, soup - why not in promoting misleading authority figures and the corollary of disempowerment? Or misrepresentations of left wing critiques? It's always better if the celebrity spokespeople believe in the product, and more vital when they are the object of attempts at commodification. Backing away altogether from discussing LPs faux-private life as transmitted at us is actually a retreat from the political. She wouldn't mind for a second anyone commenting on it positively.

This is a replay of the attempts to switch the focus to her personality, but one which is disguised as an attempt to switch the focus away from that.

Is it bollocks - you sound like one of Laurie's mates.

I'm not interested in her bedroom and I don't consider it a particularly fruitful line of discussion. This is taken by you to be some kind of sophisticated means of shutting down debate? Fuck off

To use your capital analogy looking at the bedroom is like focusing on bankers' cocaine habits instead of the ways in which they facilitate capital accumulation.

 

[SpineyNorman]

That's true. But what...or who...does she represent?...other than being 'the voice of the left'?
Jumping on fashionable banwagons isn't really a coherent position. Also, whenever 'names' engage on a thread they're generally inhibited by a number of factors:

1) a nagging feeling that: "shouldn't I be getting paid for this?"
2) an inability to comprehend that once they "have spoken", no fundamental shift has taken place
3) a belief that dissent is a sign of ignorance, racism, misogyny etc

I think it would be great if she engaged in discussion. I just don't think her notion of discussion is the same as yours; I think she'd regard it as dispensing her wisdom for 'charity'. I think you'd be disappointed by the result and probably branded a racist again within a couple of exchanges.

She's not going to enagage in the discussion whatever we do really. And what she represents is the way in which the establishment promote their own 'progrieesives' who act as gatekeepers of radical debate. Because she enjoys the one privilege whose destruction would entail the destruction of the system itself it means the focus is only on causes that can potentially be coopted by capital, as she has been.

 

[smokedout]

lots of people do that? Why laurie penny in particular? Why her? Why so much time and energy on someone who says nothing to you about your life?

tbf johann, owen, billy bragg, in fact most of them who claim to be voices of the left have been given a kicking on here at some point. I don't recall any bedroom shots befpre, but then polly toynbee doesnt post up pictures of her bedroom on the internet to try and convince people how proly she is

 

[cesare]

If we want her to engage; there are better ways of doing it than giving her ammunition not to.

If we don't want her to engage; there are more interesting conversations to be had than about her lifestyle eg why people like her and her ilk are so damaging, and furthering working class struggle despite them.

Edit: also, as someone else said, she is a poster now. Sunny Hundal isn't though. He deserves some attention.

 

[frogwoman]

On the subject of "trigger warnings" is it only me that finds these demands for demarcated safe spaces annoying? Surely all spaces should be safe unless there's a clear risk (of arrest, or violence, or whatever) which is highlighted.

trigger warnings originally were to do with descriptions of traumatic events or thoughts i think. you have them a lot in psychological forums (or you did). so if somebody was describing something that happened to them they would put a trigger warning at the top of the post to warn people that it was on a distressing topic and other people might be distressed by it. Or if somebody on the website had a phobia of spiders (for example) and the persons post was about an encounter with a spider then they would put a trigger warning on it.

I don't really think it has any place in political discourse tho, it has its place in things like the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder, but even then. And I suffer from a condition that is partially all about avoidance of things or events i am scared of (or things which might be traumatic) it strikes me that these kind of warnings could just facilitate avoidance behaviours which i have enough of a problem with anyway. The aim should be to overcome anxiety and not indulge it or use it as an excuse.

 

[equationgirl]

If we want her to engage; there are better ways of doing it than giving her ammunition not to.

If we don't want her to engage; there are more interesting conversations to be had than about her lifestyle eg why people like her and her ilk are so damaging, and furthering working class struggle despite them.

Edit: also, as someone else said, she is a poster now. Sunny Hundal isn't though. He deserves some attention.

Can we still discuss her work?

 

[cesare]

Can we still discuss her work?

That's up to everyone, my earlier post was just what I thought For myself I'd be happy to discuss her work, but I'm not sure that there's a great deal to be said because there's not much to it yet. I downloaded and read that 69 page one, are there others?

 

[frogwoman]

just another thing while we're on the topic.

indulging anxiety etc by warning somebody if they're going to see something they don't want to see or the like, is actually really harmful to somebodys recovery from having an anxiety disorder. it can be useful if you have a panic attack every time you say think about spiders, in terms of gradually introducing you to the object of your fear so that eventually you can sit with a tarantula in your lap and not be too traumatised by it. But once that point is reached (and hopefully before) warning someone every time they're going to see or do something they don't like is actually really fucking harmful. it means that you never fully learn to deal with it because every time it is viewed as some big deal that you have to be carefully warned about. that is why you shouldn't really reassure sufferers of ocd when asked "did I lock the door" or whatever, you should say something like "well i dunno" or whatever just so you learn to live with the uncertainty. Putting trigger warnings on everything just reinforces the idea in peoples minds that they can't live with things and they are too weak or whatever to handle everything, which is actually a result of the anxiety disorder anyway, and reinforces the fear and low self esteem created by it.

i frequently suffer badly with ocd btw, and i wish i could take my own advice at times. but the best times when i've managed to get over stuff that i was scared of is when i wasn't properly "prepared" for any of this shit

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

My living room looks quite nice. Mainly IKEA. Not a proper lefty.

 

[equationgirl]

That's up to everyone, my earlier post was just what I thought For myself I'd be happy to discuss her work, but I'm not sure that there's a great deal to be said because there's not much to it yet. I downloaded and read that 69 page one, are there others?

I read some of her stuff from her blog, but I wasn't overly impressed by that. It felt sensationalist, as of some of the facts had been exaggerated or extrapolated, like the stuff with the blood banks.

 

[rekil]

Can we still discuss her work?

LP's work. Running around Chicago trying to leech onto anti-NATO protests shortly after cheering NATO on. Now that's creepy and stalkery. Creepy and stalkery internationalism.

 

[equationgirl]

My living room looks quite nice. Mainly IKEA. Not a proper lefty.

My living room is a tip.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

My living room is a tip.

Proper lefty then.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Edit: also, as someone else said, she is a poster now. Sunny Hundal isn't though. He deserves some attention.

Hallelujah! Yeah so true. And just to keep things in proportion, I think it's fair to say that if LP has been given a kicking then Hundal needs to be hung, drawn and eighthed. His pretentions and self-regard leave Laurie Penny looking like some kinda model of humility and restraint.
I'm pretty sure he has fantasies where the faithful queue up to touch the hem of his donkey jacket as cure for unexamined privilege, or whatever the 21st century concerned liberal equivalent of leprosy is...this week.
And best of all...he's not just a deluded wishful thinker, he's genuinely thick. Any interviewer or discussion just has to go remotely off-script and he's floundering about like a beached porpoise.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I've got solid wood tables, bookcases and cabinets in my front room. And a leather sofa. I'm practically a Tory I reckon.

I don't own any of it and have to do maintenance on the flats to knock the rent down to a rate I can afford but that's not the point - my front room is nice so I'm like royalty or something.

 

[frogwoman]

oh, and you don't fucking WANT a serious, life-destroying anxiety disorder btw its not something you want to parade around to show how right on you are, you don't WANT to have it control your life and be the type of person that even has to think about "trigger warnings" and the like, any more than you want to have aids or be in a wheelchair. I've lost loads of friends, had problems with work, education etc because of this. It's not some fucking thing that you can talk about to boost your privilege credentials. It is not a fashion accessory, it can destroy people's life, their health etc, and calling for special treatment does not help the sufferer, it only makes it worse.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Solid wood and leather sofa you definitely aren't a proper lefty! I don't wear it anymore, but I used to wear a sovereign ring. I felt I was moving in the right direction at that point, but then the IKEA furniture has set me back to square one

On a serious note while I find these kind of middle class radicals irritating quite a bit of the time, I don't think they are of any real significance most of the time. I've never even heard of Hundal for instance and when there is any serious working class reistance (sadly it's not great from that point of view at the moment), then these kind of figures will be a total irrelevance. They may be of interest to Guardian readers but what influence do they have in reality?

 

[frogwoman]

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

They may be of interest to Guardian readers but what influence do they have in reality?

More than you realise. If the BBC want a lefty perspective...it's LP or Owen Jones...Sky call in Hundal. If your interest in politics consists in no more than watching or listening to the news, then these people are the fuckin left.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

frogwoman I agree with a lot of what you have said. I also have suffered very badly with anxiety and depression over the years and had the same kind of problems that you have mentioned, including losing a job. While I can see what you are saying about special treatment, it depends what you mean. For instance I think that schools, colleges, universities and workplaces should all make "reasonable adjustments". Often with mental health issues they just aren't recognised as being valid and then is a lot of prejudices around it. My employer has been making massive cuts, and there is no doubt that disabled people are being hit disproportionately. One steward in my work (who is amazing) organised a demonstration outside one of our workplaces to stop two disabled workers getting the sack (and won!), and part of the case she put forward was that the employer should make reasonable adjustments (see here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...lambeth-demonstration-tomorrow-friday.278382/). I actually cried when I found out she had won that case, as I knew if they had of got the sack they may well never have worked again given the unemployment rates for disable people.

Totally off topic now but how UNITE and the GMB sold out the Remploy workers who now face mass redundancy makes my blood boil.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

That a fair point actually Ronnie, maybe I'm underestimating it. I do a lot of political and trade union work and hadn't heard of Hundal, but then don't watch Sky news much (no reason for not watching it, just don't). But have seen Owen Jones loads in the last year, they seem to bring him out for so many shows now. I do find that really irritating. On Question TIme I don't see why at least one or two of the places around the table can't just be ordinary people.

 

[frogwoman]

oh yeah I completely agree with that. I would never put down having ocd when they ask about disabilities in a job application, because i am scared that it would mean that nobody would hire me, and that fear isn't a result of the ocd, it is something that actually happens. i think that mental health is way too stigmatised and assumed to be the sufferers' fault. I also agree about how employers should be more understanding, i also think that a lot of anxiety etc is related to life, work etc, ie its not something that just happens, there is always a cause behind it.

what i mean is that in terms of recovery it can be well damaging to warn people every time they're about to be exposed to something nasty. coz it makes them feel that they can't cope.and also watch that video about what that guy is saying about "identifying" with the ocd (or whatever the anxiety disorder is) and wanting to do whatever it says that we should do, as i think this is very true

frogwoman I agree with a lot of what you have said. I also have suffered very badly with anxiety and depression over the years and had the same kind of problems that you have mentioned, including losing a job. While I can see what you are saying about special treatment, it depends what you mean. For instance I think that schools, colleges, universities and workplaces should all make "reasonable adjustments". Often with mental health issues they just aren't recognised as being valid and then is a lot of prejudices around it. My employer has been making massive cuts, and there is no doubt that disabled people are being hit disproportionately. One steward in my work (who is amazing) organised a demonstration outside one of our workplaces to stop two disabled workers getting the sack (and won!), and part of the case she put forward was that the employer should make reasonable adjustments (see here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...lambeth-demonstration-tomorrow-friday.278382/). I actually cried when I found out she had won that case, as I knew if they had of got the sack they may well never have worked again given the unemployment rates for disable people.

Totally off topic now but how UNITE and the GMB sold out the Remploy workers who now face mass redundancy makes my blood boil.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Will check the video out. The job I left because of my depression/anxiety, I actually went back to the same employer five years later. And because I'd been honest at the time I had to have medical assessments when I went back, even though my employment record showed I'd been working for years. The same as you I've never put it down on the have you got a disability bit on job forms because you know it will lead to discrimination rather than any understanding. I think things have got slightly better, but not a lot.

 

[frogwoman]

I really recommend checking out those videos, not just for ocd but for any anxiety disorder, the guy is very good and very easy to listen to and what hes saying is very good advice and very interesting.

 

[Firky]

I'd watch them again and again and again and again (sorry)

I dunno... I think if you wrap others and yourself up in cotton wool it can be more damaging but everyone is different and reacts differently so I don't thinky ou can really say if TW are bad or good.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, compulsively seeking out things you're scared of or triggered off by isn't so good either. I've done that before in the past.