Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[love detective]

I think you'd be disappointed by the result and probably branded a racist again within a couple of exchanges.

And then have to apologise to her again like the last time

 

[DotCommunist]

The tramps' buffet in Waitrose is best of all supermarkets. You can get posh meats discounted from pounds to pennies.
So if you are skint and live near a Waitrose, you are lucky.
That is all.

its not a well represented chain in these parts, and the few branches that are seem to have trained their security bods and installed a prole radar. Might check out the cheapness meats though, first I've heard of that.

 

[rekil]

I'd rather we left off the photos etc. It's counterproductive, does look stalkey, and she's a poster now and it isn't usually acceptable to post up pictures of other posters lives even if they are in the public domain. I think there might be more to gain through attempting to engage with her on the issues as equationgirl has done.

I'd (still) like to know what they were thinking when this atrocity was created. Look at it. Gaze and despair ye so-called lefties.

This is the first painting I've done that hasn't been scooped up by collectors yet, so if you're interested, get in touch.

Still unsold

 

[Orang Utan]

its not a well represented chain in these parts, and the few branches that are seem to have trained their security bods and installed a prole radar. Might check out the cheapness meats though, first I've heard of that.

You can get a whole side of salmon down the front of your tracky bottoms if you're wearing the right kind

 

[olenyok]

The bedroom stuff does kind of cloud that message though, I agree with belushi. She probably shouldn't have put it online if she didn't want people to comment on it but that doesn't mean we have to comment on it does it?

If LP's inextricable work/self-presentation serves the interests of capital, for example as a star/celebrity journalist/personality cult for people to silently hand over their agency to, this seems like deciding that capital is allowed to operate in personal dimensions, to humanise and disguise itself, but we're going to censor ourselves from talking about it as such.

The impression of familiarity (eg bedroom photo) is a vital disguise technique used to sell music, soup - why not in promoting misleading authority figures and the corollary of disempowerment? Or misrepresentations of left wing critiques? It's always better if the celebrity spokespeople believe in the product, and more vital when they are the object of attempts at commodification. Backing away altogether from discussing LPs faux-private life as transmitted at us is actually a retreat from the political. She wouldn't mind for a second anyone commenting on it positively.

This is a replay of the attempts to switch the focus to her personality, but one which is disguised as an attempt to switch the focus away from that.

 

[Red Cat]

Well I can fully understand why you / Laurie would feel a bit uncomfortable about it, but you know Laurie, you did put it out there because you have a massive ego and you love nothing more than people talking and cooing about you. The whole purpose of putting all that online and making it public is you want people to see it.

I wonder if you will be like Tony Benn at his age, 80 odd year old and smoking rollies before a speech you make to middle class festival goers? Somehow I can't imagine it.

Oh and this thread and everyone here is not attacking you personally but what you represent, I still don't think you have got that.

I don't think many of us would be able to make those distinctions if it was us who was being talked about as the representation. Especially as her actions re.this thread have shown her in a very, very poor light. It's been a bit of both really hasn't it?

I don't think she has a massive ego, I think she's insecure. People who are really sure of themselves don't need constant affirmation. I don't think it's right to get too personal online about a stranger but I'm going to say it again, she seems quite vulnerable to me. And I can't forget that she's only fairly recently recovered from anorexia. All this doesn't sit right with me.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I'm sure you can have a massive ego and be insecure though can't you, but I'm no Freud! But as a general point you are right that people with a massive amount of confidence often don't need affirmation. But then again where as Cameron and Clegg seem totally sure of themselves like typical public school boys, Osbourne seems to come across as totally insecure. Under all that public school confidence I think a lot of those types do have an insecurity, maybe around the issues of being abandoned at boarding school, who knows.

In the main I agree with Red Cat that it's better to stick to the ideas than a person. I can see why people would get wound up with LP given what she's said on here and as a journo, but on the grand scale of things?

Having said that she has avoided all the serious stuff. A few questions were asked about if she is in the NUJ, what she through of various issues in the publications she has worked for etc and she has ignored all of them.

Also she is talking about privalige but ignores any class basis. Would that be by any chance because she is from a privaliged background? It's ridiculous to think that identiy politics alone cover what power relations can be. A middle class woman can often have huge power relations over a working class man for instance. Or you can get bosses from a BME background who oppress all their workers no matter what their gender, race etc Why won't LP even acknowledge that?

Then she said people on here are saying that only white working class men can be oppressed, when no-one has said anything like that as far as I can see. Of course gender, race, sexuality etc are huge issues, but at the same time that's all underpinned and mixed in with class oppression. For instance the experience of a middle class woman is very different from a working class woman. LP does seem to have many of the condesending attitudes that many middle class people have, and doens't seem to realise that she is totally unable to understand the lives of many oppressed people she claims to speak for. Indeed as she hasn't got a clue what it is like to be working class, she seems to just shunt the issue of class over to one side.

 

[Greebo]

You can get a whole side of salmon down the front of your tracky bottoms if you're wearing the right kind

TMI

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

I don't think she has a massive ego, I think she's insecure. People who are really sure of themselves don't need constant affirmation. I don't think it's right to get too personal online about a stranger but I'm going to say it again, she seems quite vulnerable to me. And I can't forget that she's only fairly recently recovered from anorexia. All this doesn't sit right with me.

Massive egos and insecurity are hardly mutually exclusive. And what you're suggesting seems to be to give her a free pass to write or post whatever she wants, however misguided, outlandish or confected without challenge...and given her fragile disposition, maybe that would be the most responsible thing. Then again, there's always the alternative used by the knowing and privilege-conscious: if you find yourself posting something which might upset her by challenging something she's written or said, then simply preface your comment with a trigger warning.

(TRIGGER WARNING: includes content that may upset those with fragile egos and massive sense of entitlement)

Should do the job

 

[goldenecitrone]

Osbourne seems to come across as totally insecure. Under all that public school confidence I think a lot of those types do have an insecurity, maybe around the issues of being abandoned at boarding school, who knows.

I was chatting to a civil servant over Christmas who reckoned that Tory MPs were far more popular than Labour MPs amongst the civil service and that Osborne was the most popular MP of all. They can't all have gone to school with him, can they?

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is just getting extremely creepy and stalky. Going through everything I do on social media for evidence of my life, my friends, speculating about how my friends live, how I live, my school, where I grew up. Please tell me how this is actually contributing for one second to useful political discourse?

The "new media" that you're a proponent of is a double-edged sword. If you write about yourself and effectively autobiographise your life across the web, print media and on twitter, then how can you possibly be surprised if that autobiography/self-publicising generates comment?
How does it contribute to useful political discourse? That's simply answered: It contributes to the likes of me broadening the understanding of the likes of me that our salvation lies with ourselves, not with idle vessels who wear the latest cause like a sloganeering tee-shirt, to be cast off when the next cause comes along, and not with the vanguardists.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I learnt that phrase "trigger warning" recently. I have to say that I do find the middle class, and often studenty, attempts to fight oppression quite irritating sometimes. They invent these types of phrases yet seem totally unaware of their own prejudices, and especially their own class prejudices. They also seem totally unaware that most of the genuine victories against oppression and bigotry have come from working class action, not an article in the New Statesman. That kind of working class action they are very unlikely to ever be a part of, or ever even really understand.

I'll never forget when I went to university and was told by these earnest middle class types that I couldn't be a socialist because I was wearing gold jewellery and Nike clothing. You couldn't make it up.

Not a real lefty. Obviously. The real issue is that private school kids are getting pressured in to going to Oxbridge. Brings a tear to the eye.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I was chatting to a civil servant over Christmas who reckoned that Tory MPs were far more popular than Labour MPs amongst the civil service and that Osborne was the most popular MP of all. They can't all have gone to school with him, can they?

No idea and not sure what that's got to do with him being insecure or not. Also not sure he is very popular with most of the country.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bit curt with you, norman, sorry. Belushi is right but there's more to it than ogling over photos of her - if LP actually took time to think for a moment she would see that. However I believe she only objects to it because it is being used to criticise when she's more used to flattery and sycophantic tweets from her instagram snaps than anything else.

I think it's more basic than that. I remember being in my twenties and being political. I was convinced that MY version of political reality was the right version. Mostly I was convinced of that because the alternatives were such toss, but I grew out of it because I deliberately challenged my own views as much as I challenged the views of others. That has got to be harder to do and to see when you can get almost instant reinforcement that your own views are right from your blog-readers and twitter followers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was chatting to a civil servant over Christmas who reckoned that Tory MPs were far more popular than Labour MPs amongst the civil service and that Osborne was the most popular MP of all. They can't all have gone to school with him, can they?

!) You're talking about mid-level and senior Civil Servants.

2) It's not so much about popularity w/r/t Osborne being a good bloke. What it tends to mean is that he's easy to work for and isn't arrogant or rude (or is less arrogant and rude than his peers).

3) I'm not surprised that he might be easier to work for/with than his Labour predecessors. Cameron made very clear to his people while still in opposition that they shouldn't alienate the Civil Service in the way that new Labour had, but rather go out of their way to cultivate them.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm sure you can have a massive ego and be insecure though can't you, but I'm no Freud! But as a general point you are right that people with a massive amount of confidence often don't need affirmation. But then again where as Cameron and Clegg seem totally sure of themselves like typical public school boys, Osbourne seems to come across as totally insecure. Under all that public school confidence I think a lot of those types do have an insecurity, maybe around the issues of being abandoned at boarding school, who knows.

Yes, you're right, of course it's not that simple or deterministic. The poise that results from a lifetime of social, economic and political entitlement can co-exist with deep personal insecurities.

 

[cesare]

On the subject of "trigger warnings" is it only me that finds these demands for demarcated safe spaces annoying? Surely all spaces should be safe unless there's a clear risk (of arrest, or violence, or whatever) which is highlighted.

 

[DotCommunist]

I think what irks me about it all is this conflation of having a platform to express left views (through a certain prism!), a platform denied to the majority, being touted as 'doing something'. Being at the barricades and writing a book about it. Tweeting while Greece burns.

I'm a crap socialist, I don't do enough reading, I only ever march when its affordable or frogz drags me along and my only contribution to the 'cause' is to try and convince people about the iniquity of the system when politics is discussed. And with my set its a 5 beers down discussion, so nailing jelly to the wall.


But there are people on here, missis included, who do a lot more thinking and doing. Plenty on here have lived struggles. LP dismisses them as trolls. She's a glib phrase merchant.

the arcana of kryptonite theory or whatever its called is deliberately isolating to the w/c.Old labour chauvinist, reactionary lumpen etc etc et fucking cetera

the examination of minutia regarding Daves personal life does allow her to cry 'creepy troll' but her refusal to engage with the more serious tangents on this thread is telling.

 

[Red Cat]

Massive egos and insecurity are hardly mutually exclusive. And what you're suggesting seems to be to give her a free pass to write or post whatever she wants, however misguided, outlandish or confected without challenge...and given her fragile disposition, maybe that would be the most responsible thing. Then again, there's always the alternative used by the knowing and privilege-conscious: if you find yourself posting something which might upset her by challenging something she's written or said, then simply preface your comment with a trigger warning.

(TRIGGER WARNING: includes content that may upset those with fragile egos and massive sense of entitlement)

Should do the job

Narcissism is probably a better word for massive ego and that does tend to go along with insecurity. But regardless of your take on it, she has had a very serious and often fatal mental illness.

I'm not giving her a free pass at all, I've agreed with the political criticisms, and I don't like what I've seen or heard of her, but I don't think she's that powerful. She reminds me of an annoying teenager, she doesn't appear to be that smart and she's not that articulate. I already said that she was a shit stirrer and provoked the very things she attacks. But I disagree that she has a massive sense of entitlement - she seems pretty ordinary middle-class to me and often out of her depth. She's not ruling class is she?

 

[Firky]

WTF is a trigger warning, another manarchist phrase I have mixxed?

 

[Firky]

Jesus Christ. My mam could make a balls of doing us some fish fingers.

My mum ruined Christmas dinner this year, she was so drunk she could not open the tin of spam.

PFWC.

 

[barney_pig]

Jesus Christ. My mam could make a balls of doing us some fish fingers.

My mums bad cooking is a legend in our family, though cooking lobster is not much more difficult than boiling an egg, although eggs don't wriggle as they go in the water.

 

[DotCommunist]

My mum ruined Christmas dinner this year, she was so drunk she could not open the tin of spam.

PFWC.

my brother wasn't allowed to my house this christmas because he called mum a cunt on the phone and was to prideful to take it back just to keep the yule peace.

I ate my chrismas feast alone while ma slept off two bottles of cheap fizz. Pulled a cracker with the dog who was angered by the snapping noise but made short work of the small plastic comb. Small enough to be a pube comb. Doctor Who was scorchio good, so the day was not lost.

 

[Firky]

This is going to turn into another Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

 

[Favelado]

Well, at least you're not digging out of the bins of Carrefour at night like some of my neighbours.

Cue 4 Yorkshiremen.

Well. It's been coming for a couple of pages.

We were so poor that one birthday my mum told me she hadn't bought me a present because she had "bought me some socks last week."

That is true but I'm telling you because I want your pity.

 

[DotCommunist]

This is going to turn into another Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

christmas is rubbish though unless you are a kid or have a kid. In the hinterlands of knocking 30 males its just an excuse to get pished and eat imo.

 

[Favelado]

However, I'm from Lancashire and Yorkshire can fuck right off.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

. But I disagree that she has a massive sense of entitlement - she seems pretty ordinary middle-class to me and often out of her depth. She's not ruling class is she?

Not sure i agree here. I think she's a massive sense of entitlement to the extent that she clearly expects...not exactly deference...but a special premium accorded to her views. Wasn't there something about "if you'd read my work, you'd know that.."?...which implies that a knowledge of her work is a must for any cutting-edge lefty...as well as the suggestion that to have read it is to concur with its self-evident logic.

So why does she expect her writing to be given a greater weight than that of others?... can you imagine her response if someone had replied: "yes Laurie, but if you'd been following my work..."
Does she think she's earned the right to be taken seriously because she's got a column in the NS...because she's Oxbridge...because she was the smartest kid in a very expensive school...or because there's a hard core of impressionable idiots who fuckin swoon about everything she writes?

And, appropriately enough...if we switched to post-structuralist or deconstructionist terminology, what she seems to expect for her own 'work' is that it is 'privileged' over that of 'decentred' alternatives. In those terms she regards her brand of leftism...identity, single one-off hip agendas and an infatuation with an anarchist aesthetic...to be the mainstream of left-wing thought; rather than a bunch of hipster tourists striking poses before they bow to the inevitable mortgage and pension plan. You'll know it's come full circle in a few years when the Guardian supplement carries her breathless justification for hiring a nanny so she can continue her vital work on empowering oppressed women.

 

[Red Cat]

Not sure i agree here. I think she's a massive sense of entitlement to the extent that she clearly expects...not exactly deference...but a special premium accorded to her views. Wasn't there something about "if you'd read my work, you'd know that.."?...which implies that a knowledge of her work is a must for any cutting-edge lefty...as well as the suggestion that to have read it is to concur with its self-evident logic.

Yes, you're right she does have a sense of entitlement. And it is that entitlement that was being challenged on this thread. It just feels more shaky than solid to me. Anyway, I'm not able to convey what I mean because it comes from a sense of her, which may be wrong, and doesn't really alter anything politically anyway.

I just can't get over how small she seems in comparison to the attacks on us. Here in Brum the council are closing down 5 children's homes with the lie that it's better for them to be in foster homes despite there not being enough foster homes available for them to go to. Some of the most vulnerable children in our society are going to lose their home (however imperfect) and this upsets and angers me so much and makes me feel so powerless.....and Laurie Penny just seems so irrelevant.

 

[BigTom]

WTF is a trigger warning, another manarchist phrase I have mixxed?

trigger warning = the (usually linked) content has stuff about rape/abuse/whatever that might trigger emotional reactions from bad memories / anxiety or ptsd type problems for people who have experienced similar traumatic events so they don't read it / are prepared for reading it before they do.