Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[tufty79]

fwiw, i've really appreciated trigger warnings being posted - ptsd context rather than ocd here, dunno how different that is?

re discrimination.. with my current job (and the last one, come to think of it), i was straight with 'em in my application/interview about my mh history/disability status. i'm not sure that i'd have been considered/taken on if they hadn't been a mh organisation though

 

[frogwoman]

fwiw, i've really appreciated trigger warnings being posted - ptsd context rather than ocd here, dunno how different that is?

re discrimination.. with my current job (and the last one, come to think of it), i was straight with 'em in my application/interview about my mh history/disability status. i'm not sure that i'd have been considered/taken on if they hadn't been a mh organisation though

yer i think ptsd is a bit different. not sure though!

 

[Firky]

They're both anxiety disorders.

 

[equationgirl]

frogwoman I agree with a lot of what you have said. I also have suffered very badly with anxiety and depression over the years and had the same kind of problems that you have mentioned, including losing a job. While I can see what you are saying about special treatment, it depends what you mean. For instance I think that schools, colleges, universities and workplaces should all make "reasonable adjustments". Often with mental health issues they just aren't recognised as being valid and then is a lot of prejudices around it. My employer has been making massive cuts, and there is no doubt that disabled people are being hit disproportionately. One steward in my work (who is amazing) organised a demonstration outside one of our workplaces to stop two disabled workers getting the sack (and won!), and part of the case she put forward was that the employer should make reasonable adjustments (see here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...lambeth-demonstration-tomorrow-friday.278382/). I actually cried when I found out she had won that case, as I knew if they had of got the sack they may well never have worked again given the unemployment rates for disable people.

Totally off topic now but how UNITE and the GMB sold out the Remploy workers who now face mass redundancy makes my blood boil.

Point to note: it's not that they should make reasonable adjustments for those with disabilities, it's that they have to by law. But the adjustment itself has to be a sensible adjustment:

Here's a PCS summary:
http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/equality/d...lkit/understanding_reasonable_adjustments.cfm

For example, a reasonable adjustment and one actually backed up by case law is the separation of absence into absences related to the disability and absences unrelated to the disability. So if I've had 14 days absence in the last year, but 10 days was related to chronic kidney disease and 4 days was related to a virus, only the 4 days should be counted for the purposes of absence management.

Congratulations to your shop steward for winning her fight, that's awesome

 

[Delroy Booth]

oh she's been back. How wonderfully unpredictable.

Any chance of answering those 3 questions I asked you from the first time you stumbled upon this thread? Or do you only take questions from rich people?

Actually no fuck that, and fuck you Laurie Penny. I don't want your answers. At this point there's nothing you could possibly do to salvage any kind of respect or comradery from me.

I really do hope you fuck off properly but I suspect you'll be back, like a moth attracted to a lighbulb you're ego will demand you come on here and make repeated attempts to make us all see the error of our ways and repent. Never, ever, going to happen btw. At least not from me. Not now. You've gone from being a stuck-up celebrity left-winger, who I used to read for shits and giggles and who used to make me cringe, to being someone I think of as a political opponent, and who I dislike quite intensely from the way you've treated people on this board. I wouldn't be any more inclined to want to engage with Laurie Penny than I would want to engage with James Delingpole or Simon Heffer tbh. I think she's worse than Sunny Hundal. Hundal's a pompous liberal, but I think Laurie Penny is a total fraud and a public liability for the whole left. I tell you now if these people are our ambassadors then we're hopelessly fucked. If you had to invent some grotesque caricature of a left-wing writer, oblivious to their own privilige whilst obsessing about everyone else's, someone invented by a spook in mi5,like a clone whose job it was to descredit the left and make it (even more of) a joke to the voting public, then you'd come out with something very much like Laurie Penny.

Yours sincerely, an unemployed socialist from huddersfield in his mid-20's.

PS I've never once said anything sexist about Laurie Penny ever and I don't like it when other people have. But it hasn't made even the slightest bit of fucking difference she's never going to answer my questions. I could be as polite and charming as anyone and it still wouldn't matter, so why fucking bother?

 

[Delroy Booth]

Anyway, trigger warnings seems pretty sensible to me on the whole, but I did read an article where someone wrote that they'd recieved emails demanding that a trigger warnings be attached to an article about balloons because there's such a thing as globophobia.

There's a phobia of ladders, I can't remember it's name but I'm sure it exists, a friend of mine who worked as a scaffolder has it. I dunno if he got diagnosed with a specific phobia or just a more general anxiety disorder, but he used to work with ladders daily and now can't set a single foot on one, and gets visibly nervous when even around them. I'm gonna ask him if he thinks there's should be trigger warnings on articles or stories that include ladders. It'd be interesting to see what his take on the whole thing is.

 

[Das Uberdog]

there's been an rash of badly placed 'trigger warnings' mainly in the 'privelige politics' tumblr blogs circuit in the last year or so though, which i think gives the 'trigger warnings' a different context. from being a medical and quite specific warning it's turned in some circles into a cliched phrase attached to anything from waffly long blogs voyeuristically pondering on gender identities to anything remotely related to sex - and as frogwoman suggests above, often it seems that many of these individuals are attributing 'trauma triggers' to themselves as a fashion accessory. i've even seen the shortened use of the word 'trigger' used casually in fb conversations, usually disapprovingly relating to an article or something else posted.

imo 'trigger warnings' should retain their technical usage specifically relating to severe and often quite personalised instances of trauma, and not generalised into a cheap catch-all for anything deemed risque - which is what often happens. in most cases i think the use of an old-fashioned disclaimer is more apt

 

[frogwoman]

is the aim to promote recovery (ie not to get nervous around ladders, to treat ladders as a normal non threatening object) or to continue avoiding them and avoiding situations where he might be around them or might see them?to entrench that feeling of fear?

 

[frogwoman]

there's been an rash of badly placed 'trigger warnings' mainly in the 'privelige politics' tumblr blogs circuit in the last year or so though, which i think gives the 'trigger warnings' a different context. from being a medical and quite specific warning it's turned in some circles into a cliched phrase attached to anything from waffly long blogs voyeuristically pondering on gender identities to anything remotely related to sex - and as frogwoman suggests above, often it seems that many of these individuals are attributing 'trauma triggers' to themselves as a fashion accessory. i've even seen the shortened use of the word 'trigger' used casually in fb conversations, usually disapprovingly relating to an article or something else posted.

imo 'trigger warnings' should retain their technical usage specifically relating to severe and often quite personalised instances of trauma, and not generalised into a cheap catch-all for anything deemed risque - which is what often happens. in most cases i think the use of an old-fashioned disclaimer is more apt

yep.

 

[cesare]

yep.

Yep from me too.

It's not helpful to overuse trigger warnings, they should be occasional/properly thought out so they don't become the subject of ridicule "please phone, even if you don't have a phone" or ignored, or even harmful. The "safe spaces" thing is similar.

ETA: doing things to thoughtlessly highlight difference and make people tiptoe round doesn't make societal changes in a constructive way. Unless we move to revolutionary times, changes will be slower and structural, but deeper seated, hopefully.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

imo 'trigger warnings' should retain their technical usage specifically relating to severe and often quite personalised instances of trauma, and not generalised into a cheap catch-all for anything deemed risque - which is what often happens. in most cases i think the use of an old-fashioned disclaimer is more apt

Indeed.

 

[rekil]

'Me creo punky y alternativa
Y no me importa lo que tu me digas
La disciplina es mi enemiga
Y la anarquia mi forma de vida'

Kel, the Chilean Laura, is a little bit communism, except for the bit at the end, too much self-awareness.

 

[Firky]

For those of us not fluent in Castilian?

 

[Firky]

there's been an rash of badly placed 'trigger warnings' mainly in the 'privelige politics' tumblr blogs circuit in the last year or so though, which i think gives the 'trigger warnings' a different context. from being a medical and quite specific warning it's turned in some circles into a cliched phrase attached to anything from waffly long blogs voyeuristically pondering on gender identities to anything remotely related to sex - and as frogwoman suggests above, often it seems that many of these individuals are attributing 'trauma triggers' to themselves as a fashion accessory. i've even seen the shortened use of the word 'trigger' used casually in fb conversations, usually disapprovingly relating to an article or something else posted.

imo 'trigger warnings' should retain their technical usage specifically relating to severe and often quite personalised instances of trauma, and not generalised into a cheap catch-all for anything deemed risque - which is what often happens. in most cases i think the use of an old-fashioned disclaimer is more apt

Aahh, thanks as well! Much clearer understanding now. I did not realise it had become a term that was thrown around carelessly.

 

[spawnofsatan]

For those of us not fluent in Castilian?

Same lyrics as 'Pump up the bitter' by Stars on 45 (pints)

 

[cesare]

For those of us not fluent in Castilian?

The Proletarian Democracy despises simplistic assumptions of language skills in their communiques, comrade.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Trigger warning

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4381454.stm

 

[cesare]

Trigger warning

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4381454.stm

 

[rekil]

For those of us not fluent in Castilian?

She's punky and alternative, she don't care what you say, discipline is her enemy, and anarchy is her way of life, man. And so on.

 

[Firky]

I saw Roger Lloyd Pack reading T.S Elliot and he was excellent.

Whole thing was terribly face.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

She's punky and alternative, she don't care what you say, discipline is her enemy, and anarchy is her way of life, man. And so on.

vomits.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the subject of "trigger warnings" is it only me that finds these demands for demarcated safe spaces annoying? Surely all spaces should be safe unless there's a clear risk (of arrest, or violence, or whatever) which is highlighted.

While I can see the request/demand for safe physical spaces as being a natural concomitant to wanting a psychologically-safe zone, it doesn't seem to occur to many of those demanding them that in some of the locales they demand them, the environment rather than privilege makes them difficult or impossible.
I was horrified when I first heard about the prevalence of attempted sexual assault and harrassment at Occupy! London and its' New York sibling, but I was also horrified that nothing had been planned, and that some sort of Utopian "it'll be alright on the night" schtick had been in play. In that sort of situation "safe spaces" are emotionally and physically necessary.
That said, there's also a facet of the demand that is political and can be (either deliberately or unintentionally) exclusionary - "there must be a safe space for ***add your identity group here***" - and is aimed at securing advantage/privilege in the name of addressing the same.

 

[Firky]

I wonder if she ever found an Obama 08 hoodie, she could write a song?

 

[cesare]

While I can see the request/demand for safe physical spaces as being a natural concomitant to wanting a psychologically-safe zone, it doesn't seem to occur to many of those demanding them that in some of the locales they demand them, the environment rather than privilege makes them difficult or impossible.
I was horrified when I first heard about the prevalence of attempted sexual assault and harrassment at Occupy! London and its' New York sibling, but I was also horrified that nothing had been planned, and that some sort of Utopian "it'll be alright on the night" schtick had been in play. In that sort of situation "safe spaces" are emotionally and physically necessary.
That said, there's also a facet of the demand that is political and can be (either deliberately or unintentionally) exclusionary - "there must be a safe space for ***add your identity group here***" - and is aimed at securing advantage/privilege in the name of addressing the same.

I believe that many in the Occupy movement underestimated that it might be hi-jacked by people that use the V mask as a mask for carrying out sexual assault, anti-semitism, conspiracy theory and various other cuntish aspects under cover.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More than you realise. If the BBC want a lefty perspective...it's LP or Owen Jones...Sky call in Hundal. If your interest in politics consists in no more than watching or listening to the news, then these people are the fuckin left.

Says it all about Sunny Boy that he's the go-to guy for Sky. A left-liberal wedded to parliamentary democracy is probably all the Murdoch drones can manage without spontaneously combusting.

 

[frogwoman]

While I can see the request/demand for safe physical spaces as being a natural concomitant to wanting a psychologically-safe zone, it doesn't seem to occur to many of those demanding them that in some of the locales they demand them, the environment rather than privilege makes them difficult or impossible.
I was horrified when I first heard about the prevalence of attempted sexual assault and harrassment at Occupy! London and its' New York sibling, but I was also horrified that nothing had been planned, and that some sort of Utopian "it'll be alright on the night" schtick had been in play. In that sort of situation "safe spaces" are emotionally and physically necessary.
That said, there's also a facet of the demand that is political and can be (either deliberately or unintentionally) exclusionary - "there must be a safe space for ***add your identity group here***" - and is aimed at securing advantage/privilege in the name of addressing the same.

if there is a "safe space" for whatever it is then surely that does not address why the rest of it is unsafe.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

My great uncle Stan went to the states in the 50s. Worked his way over to California and even got some work as an extra in westerns. He had to come back home though. He got injured when he was knocked over by Roy Roger's horse. Mind you, they weren't as clued up privilege-wise back then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hallelujah! Yeah so true. And just to keep things in proportion, I think it's fair to say that if LP has been given a kicking then Hundal needs to be hung, drawn and eighthed. His pretentions and self-regard leave Laurie Penny looking like some kinda model of humility and restraint.

Plus his occasional, sometimes overwrought playing of the race card

I'm pretty sure he has fantasies where the faithful queue up to touch the hem of his donkey jacket as cure for unexamined privilege, or whatever the 21st century concerned liberal equivalent of leprosy is...this week.

Ah, but can he heal King's Evil?

And best of all...he's not just a deluded wishful thinker, he's genuinely thick. Any interviewer or discussion just has to go remotely off-script and he's floundering about like a beached porpoise.

Last time I said "Hundal is thick", I got told off because "Sunny has a degree in economics". My correspondent was a bit nonplussed when I said "thanks for proving my point".

 

[frogwoman]

I do not think that the response to sexual harassment and a culture of its acceptability among certain parts of the left and the occupy movement should be a call for "safe spaces" where people will not be sexually harassed. as you have to ask for it rather than it being a given. nobody should be sexually harassed and calling for a safe space within a space that should fuckin be safe anyway is pointless and actively harmful. get my point?

 

[Red Cat]

there's been an rash of badly placed 'trigger warnings' mainly in the 'privelige politics' tumblr blogs circuit in the last year or so though, which i think gives the 'trigger warnings' a different context. from being a medical and quite specific warning it's turned in some circles into a cliched phrase attached to anything from waffly long blogs voyeuristically pondering on gender identities to anything remotely related to sex - and as frogwoman suggests above, often it seems that many of these individuals are attributing 'trauma triggers' to themselves as a fashion accessory. i've even seen the shortened use of the word 'trigger' used casually in fb conversations, usually disapprovingly relating to an article or something else posted.

O brave new world that has such people in it!