Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[frogwoman]

I believe that many in the Occupy movement underestimated that it might be hi-jacked by people that use the V mask as a mask for carrying out sexual assault, anti-semitism, conspiracy theory and various other cuntish aspects under cover.

the answer to sexual assault, anti-semitism, racism, misogyny and the like should not be "let's create a space where none of this happens". Fuck's sake.

 

[love detective]

Anyway, trigger warnings seems pretty sensible to me on the whole, but I did read an article where someone wrote that they'd recieved emails demanding that a trigger warnings be attached to an article about balloons because there's such a thing as globophobia.

There's a phobia of ladders, I can't remember it's name but I'm sure it exists, a friend of mine who worked as a scaffolder has it. I dunno if he got diagnosed with a specific phobia or just a more general anxiety disorder, but he used to work with ladders daily and now can't set a single foot on one, and gets visibly nervous when even around them. I'm gonna ask him if he thinks there's should be trigger warnings on articles or stories that include ladders. It'd be interesting to see what his take on the whole thing is.

My mate had a phobia of those brushes that are used to sweep the streets

He should have had a trigger warning

 

[cesare]

if there is a "safe space" for whatever it is then surely that does not address why the rest of it is unsafe.

Well that's the big point innit. Surely we should be demanding that all spaces are safe unless they're it's specifically unsafe/has risks.

Demanding otherwise is a race to the bottom argument, and fuck that.

 

[frogwoman]

this is how zionism started

 

[cesare]

the answer to sexual assault, anti-semitism, racism, misogyny and the like should not be "let's create a space where none of this happens". Fuck's sake.

That's exactly my point about this designated "safe space" bollocks.

 

[love detective]

Trigger warning

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4381454.stm

didn't see this before I did my trigger joke

feel like such an arse now

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Del Boy fell through a bar where the hatch had been raised up by a barmaid, should have had a Trigger warning

 

[Firky]

the answer to sexual assault, anti-semitism, racism, misogyny and the like should not be "let's create a space where none of this happens". Fuck's sake.

I remember watching this documentary about some hippy commune in Sweden I think it was. They basically had that idea - create a self containted community where none of that was supposed to exist. What happened was the opposite. abuse, bullying and theft became rife and everyone was too afraid to upset the apple cart of the community and do anything about. Eventually it imploded.

It reminded me of the cults you get in America where everything is kept internal and dealt with internally.

 

[cesare]

If someone sexually assaults me, I do not want to be told it was my fault for venturing outside of the "safe space" area.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

In an unsafe society there can be no safe spaces

 

[love detective]

Del Boy fell through a bar where the hatch had been raised up by a barmaid, should have had a Trigger warning

Do you see what happened there? He's gone to lean on a part of the bar and (and here's the funny bit), it wasn't there

So he's only gone and fallen through the gap where the bit of the bar that he thought was there, wasn't

 

[Firky]

Please don't wheel out Stewart Fucking Lee.

 

[Buckaroo]

There's a difference between 'safe space' on t'internet', just words and that and safe physical space, let's have a dry, no drink/drugs/crazy talk/fisticuffs place, that kind of thing, isn't there?

 

[frogwoman]

Anyway, trigger warnings seems pretty sensible to me on the whole, but I did read an article where someone wrote that they'd recieved emails demanding that a trigger warnings be attached to an article about balloons because there's such a thing as globophobia.

Is it more important that somebody is helped to overcome their fear and lead a normal life where they aren't shitting themselves all the time over things like balloons, cats, becoming contaminated, locking/unlocking doors or everyone hating them or should illnesses that impede social and emotional life be indulged over things like balloons and things like that?

anxiety disorders are never content when they are catered to. engineering it so the sufferer never has to confront the object of their fear just makes the anxiety more debilitating when they are confronted with it. it will just take more and more and more. if you ask people to say check the front door is locked a certain number of times you will have to check it again anyway. it will not help you lead a normal life. quite the opposite. being helped to avoid balloons and the mention of them will not make you less scared of them, in fact the fear will end up controlling your life more and more and more.

 

[love detective]

Please don't wheel out Stewart Fucking Lee.

I don't think you understand

He's went to lean on something that wasn't even there

 

[cesare]

In an unsafe society there can be no safe spaces

Exactly. None of it's safe so why create artificial ones (which are a target for easy abuse) rather than just make sure people are properly informed so they can make their own choice.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

 

[Delroy Booth]

While I can see the request/demand for safe physical spaces as being a natural concomitant to wanting a psychologically-safe zone, it doesn't seem to occur to many of those demanding them that in some of the locales they demand them, the environment rather than privilege makes them difficult or impossible.
I was horrified when I first heard about the prevalence of attempted sexual assault and harrassment at Occupy! London and its' New York sibling, but I was also horrified that nothing had been planned, and that some sort of Utopian "it'll be alright on the night" schtick had been in play. In that sort of situation "safe spaces" are emotionally and physically necessary.
That said, there's also a facet of the demand that is political and can be (either deliberately or unintentionally) exclusionary - "there must be a safe space for ***add your identity group here***" - and is aimed at securing advantage/privilege in the name of addressing the same.

This is right, and the occupy example is perfect for illustrating it. The assumption that the potential sexual assault wasn't going to be an issue at various Occupy gathering was stupid. You get a feeling based on that, although I don't know if it's true, the organisers were mainly middle class men who simply weren't thinking about those problems at all. Probably had their minds on higher things. There's always been predatory people fringe in left groups, whether it's anarchists trots greens or whoever, so something should've been organised from the beginning but nowt was. The fact that sexual assaults took place and were hushed up in some cases was demonstration of how bad these initial assumptions can be. Against this sort of backdrop I can see why people demand safe spaces, although we shouldn't lose sight of the fact we ought to be working to make safe spaces unnecessary.

This should really be seperated from the way in which some people cynically and deliberately develop this into a more abstract idea, that practically every concievable identity group should be treated like an exclusive political unit, and I think that's quite dangerous. It's more than just exclusionary, it can be used direct way create little heirachies and sub-divisions, it can be used in a practical way to secure privilige of various kinds, it's used in a political way all the time within political parties as a part of power struggles, within pretty much all bureaucratic organisations, civil service, i mean it goes on and on.

 

[love detective]

over and over again

 

[Firky]

Creating her own legacy.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

what is it with ginger Welsh Social Democrats?

 

[frogwoman]

I remember watching this documentary about some hippy commune in Sweden I think it was. They basically had that idea - create a self containted community where none of that was supposed to exist. What happened was the opposite. abuse, bullying and theft became rife and everyone was too afraid to upset the apple cart of the community and do anything about. Eventually it imploded.

It reminded me of the cults you get in America where everything is kept internal and dealt with internally.

link?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Has anyone got a gif of ernestolynch tripping over a prone crackhead in Sutton?

 

[Delroy Booth]

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

My great uncle Stan went to the states in the 50s. Worked his way over to California and even got some work as an extra in westerns. He had to come back home though. He got injured when he was knocked over by Roy Roger's horse. Mind you, they weren't as clued up privilege-wise back then.

Fuck this...I'm off for a bevvy. Not sure anymore. Might be an age thing...might just not have been funny.
But if you're under 45...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkg2C_EIea0

 

[BigTom]

Is there a difference between a "safe space" and a group having a safer spaces policy? Cos the latter is useful when you need to kick dickheads out of something/somewhere cos you can tell the wussy liberals/wanky anarchists that they've broken agreed policies.

It's very easy to get people to agree that no racism/sexism/etc is acceptable, but hard to get some people to take action to hold some accountable or exclude them. Easier if you've pre agreed that it should happen before it actually does.

 

[Firky]

Christ, Froggy. Now you're asking, it was years ago!

 

[frogwoman]

I demand a safe space where there is no anti-semitism. In Palestine, the safest space of all

 

[Nice one]

Is there a difference between a "safe space" and a group having a safer spaces policy? Cos the latter is useful when you need to kick dickheads out of something/somewhere cos you can tell the wussy liberals/wanky anarchists that they've broken agreed policies.

It's very easy to get people to agree that no racism/sexism/etc is acceptable, but hard to get some people to take action to hold some accountable or exclude them. Easier if you've pre agreed that it should happen before it actually does.

that was always my understanding. 'House rules' basically

 

[Delroy Booth]

that was always my understanding. 'House rules' basically

Stalinist