Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[frogwoman]

Socialist sheds not conservatories for the rich

we must abandon labour's leaky old shed and build a new workers shed big enough to put all of the working class in it

 

[frogwoman]

For a 24 hour public sector shed

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

#Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made.#

...except sheds

 

[weepiper]

we must abandon labour's leaky old shed and build a new workers shed big enough to put all of the working class in it

 

[frogwoman]

"can you get the hammer out of the shed?"
"that's not my role in the party"

 

[ViolentPanda]

The analysis of pictures of my bedroom is really creepy, guys. I'm really sorry for having a window and a bed, though. Am I not allowed to write about class politics if I have a window and a bed? Should I knock out the window and sleep on the floor?

It's more that the reality doesn't do the description as a "hovel" justice. Where's the mould, the thick ingrained grime and the tar-like nicotine staining? Where's the foetid pile of rotting rags that serve as bedding? Frankly, I'm disappointed!

Anyway, your dismissal of 'identity' politics is getting desperate. You seem really, really anxious to convince yourselves that only the politics of white working class men is actually relevant to economic and social struggle. Those of us who are and who fight for women, people of colour and minorities don't call it 'identity politics', by the way. We just call it 'politics.'

Crap differentialism. We are, as the Tories are fond of pretending, "all in it together", whatever our gender, sexuality, ethnicity or religious conviction. We're all bound together by an over-arching issue - our relative positions on the "class ladder".
Obviously, it ill-behooves you to acknowledge this, given your own relatively higher position than a significant minority (perhaps even a majority) of the population, but that doesn't make it any less relevant. You have "power", and a relationship to power, that few of my ilk can (if we wished to) aspire to, and yet you attempt to paper over that fact in favour of representing yourself as an oppressed crusader, without acknowledging that oppression too is relative.

 

[Captain Hurrah]

The Russian government still looks after a restored shed that V. I. Lenin hid in for a few days in the summer of 1917. Not far from lake Razliv.

 

[frogwoman]

have you heard of a man called trotsky? he had a shed you know

 

[el-ahrairah]

looks like even some of the literary left are turning their back on identity politics. http://shiftmag.co.uk/?p=679

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is it though? Erased from modern feminism, I mean.

If by "class consciousness" we mean peoples' awareness of the constraints imposed by differential class positions, then "erased from party political discourse entirely" is more like it. It's not just an issue for feminism, it's an issue for anyone and everyone. Much of the time the issue is missing because those with power to control the discourse around class, deem that it should be so.

 

[ViolentPanda]

have you heard of a man called trotsky? he had a shed you know

He kept an icepick alongside his shovel, fork and how.

 

[Brixton Hatter]

Sheds are proper bourgeois anyway. You have to be able to afford a place with a garden. Same as garages. I'll allow a shed on an allotment.

Not to mention that lickspittle class traitor Arthur 'Two Sheds' Jackson...

 

[ViolentPanda]

I get that worry, which is why quota systems of (eg) 30 percent women in a workplace are insulting. But how do you know the men in any workplace got their jobs on merit, rather than inbuilt bias in their favour?

You can't know.
However, to assume that because bias is possible, that it always takes place, is just as insulting as you say a quota system is - as such an assumption naturalises male duplicity into a trait inherent to all males.

 

[rekil]

 

[ViolentPanda]

You lot just like being horrible to white, posh, middle-class people.

You say that like it's a bad thing!

 

[8ball]

You say that like it's a bad thing!

Some of my best friends are white and middle-class!

(don't know many proper poshos, though)

 

[Captain Hurrah]

have you heard of a man called trotsky? he had a shed you know

There's one of the Moscow trials of the 1930s. The defendants were called the Shed Seven, named after the little building in which a cell of Trotskyite-Fascist terrorists was discovered, secretly plotting to assassinate members of the Soviet government.

 

[_angel_]

Sheds are proper bourgeois anyway. You have to be able to afford a place with a garden. Same as garages. I'll allow a shed on an allotment.

Nah not really. Council houses have nice big gardens here in Leeds.
Garages are bourgeois tho because it's assuming you will have a car.

 

[_angel_]

Has butcher's got one?

Knowledge shed?

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Nah not really. Council houses have nice big gardens here in Leeds.
Garages are bourgeois tho because it's assuming you will have a car.

Having a car is bourgeois? You sure? I've got a car...but I haven't got a garage or even space for a shed in the yard.

 

[cesare]

You can't know.
However, to assume that because bias is possible, that it always takes place, is just as insulting as you say a quota system is - as such an assumption naturalises male duplicity into a trait inherent to all males.

And to take that point one stage further ...

Bias isn't just possible, it's probable. Everyone does it, consciously or not. And not all bias equates to unlawful discimination either, it can be as simple as preferring a candidate with gardening as a hobby as opposed to, say, playing a musical instrument.

But because bias can result in perpetuating imbalances in the workplace; recruitment, reorganising, training, promotion etc have to be looked at carefully. So for example someone should be looking at job descriptions/person specs ( at whatever stage) and saying "hang on, you don't need a degree for this" "you don't need 3 years work experience to do that, a school leaver could do it" "you don't stop being able to do that job at 65" "you don't need written and spoken English for that" and so on. There's a whole raft of checks and measures that should be in place to try and address structural inequalities.

Not box ticking. Not gathering (intrusive) data by way of EO monitoring forms then filing the forms in a dusty corner. Not quotas instead of (as unbiased as possible) merit.

None of it happens overnight and working towards a situation where you don't have to spend bloody hours arguing why women are just as capable as men of taking an inside leg measurement has taken decades to achieve. So LP swanning up and tritely advocating quota systems which are already proven to fail, just shows the depth of her lack of understanding. And it's pretty bloody galling to say the least.

 

[equationgirl]

And to take that point one stage further ...

Bias isn't just possible, it's probable. Everyone does it, consciously or not. And not all bias equates to unlawful discimination either, it can be as simple as preferring a candidate with gardening as a hobby as opposed to, say, playing a musical instrument.

But because bias can result in perpetuating imbalances in the workplace; recruitment, reorganising, training, promotion etc have to be looked at carefully. So for example someone should be looking at job descriptions/person specs ( at whatever stage) and saying "hang on, you don't need a degree for this" "you don't need 3 years work experience to do that, a school leaver could do it" "you don't stop being able to do that job at 65" "you don't need written and spoken English for that" and so on. There's a whole raft of checks and measures that should be in place to try and address structural inequalities.

Not box ticking. Not gathering (intrusive) data by way of EO monitoring forms then filing the forms in a dusty corner. Not quotas instead of (as unbiased as possible) merit.

None of it happens overnight and working towards a situation where you don't have to spend bloody hours arguing why women are just as capable as men of taking an inside leg measurement has taken decades to achieve. So LP swanning up and tritely advocating quota systems which are already proven to fail, just shows the depth of her lack of understanding. And it's pretty bloody galling to say the least.

Excellent post, cesare

I will say this in LP's defence - she's 26 and might never have heard of quotas before. This might well be the first time she's encountered the idea in a practical situation. I'm not sure I had, to be fair.

That's not to say there isn't a wealth of information about this topic out there - there is, and a lot of research showing why quotas don't work. Perhaps now @lauriepenny will research quotas and write an article about why they don't work.

 

[cesare]

Excellent post, cesare

I will say this in LP's defence - she's 26 and might never have heard of quotas before. This might well be the first time she's encountered the idea in a practical situation. I'm not sure I had, to be fair.

That's not to say there isn't a wealth of information about this topic out there - there is, and a lot of research showing why quotas don't work. Perhaps now @lauriepenny will research quotas and write an article about why they don't work.

She may well never have heard of quotas before, there's no harm in that. The harm is in having an opinion based on no or superficial knowledge and then saying not having quotas is "silly"

 

[ymu]

@kabbes is good on this. Helped turn his City workplace from largely male to 50/50, and they did it by looking at every stage of the recruitment process, including how the people they sent to careers fairs were conducting themselves.

Fuck all point in a quota if the workplace itself is hostile to <insert underprivilege here>.

 

[_angel_]

Having a car is bourgeois? You sure? I've got a car...but I haven't got a garage or even space for a shed in the yard.

Nah you're not listening. Garages or houses built with driveways are (like my mums) round here none were built with drives and garages as it was assumed that people who live in council houses wouldn't have cars.

 

[equationgirl]

She may well never have heard of quotas before, there's no harm in that. The harm is in having an opinion based on no or superficial knowledge and then saying not having quotas is "silly"

I did like that bit - 'silly'

 

[cesare]

@kabbes is good on this. Helped turn his City workplace from largely male to 50/50, and they did it by looking at every stage of the recruitment process, including how the people they sent to careers fairs were conducting themselves.

Fuck all point in a quota if the workplace itself is hostile to <insert underprivilege here>.

Re-organising is another classic and this is another area where decent union representation can do a great deal. Part of the consultation process should be demanding to see the job descriptions/person specs for the new roles and screening those for bias. It's often missed.

 

[ymu]

@kabbes is good on this. Helped turn his City workplace from largely male to 50/50, and they did it by looking at every stage of the recruitment process, including how the people they sent to careers fairs were conducting themselves.

Fuck all point in a quota if the workplace itself is hostile to <insert underprivilege here>.

Quoting myself to add that class is just as important as all the other 'privilege' categories. This is an interestimg interview with a working-class City worker, who commuted every day from oop North because she was determined to take the money and run and never get sucked into doing it because lifestyle demanded she continue.

Voices of finance: IT business analyst (vice president level)

"I have never encountered sexism, it's a really meritocratic place, finance, it's one of the cool things about working here, plus the international element. There are people from Israel, the US, Germany, Australia, South Africa… You hear all these different languages, you get to ask people about their countries and religions.

"I have no university degree but my lack of formal qualifications has never been held against me at the bank. It's about what you can do. There is office banter, of course. People describing a particular woman as 'a bit hormonal today'. The traders and sales people make fun of my northern accent, which I have actually adapted a bit to make myself better understood. In return I call them 'posh', it's all pretty good-humoured, but a different world all the same, theirs and mine.

"I am working-class from the north. They went to private schools, they have nannies for their children. The other day a colleague turned to me. He had just worked out that after school fees, mortgage payments and everything, he was left with 'only the minimum wage to spend'. So I asked him: 'What do you think ordinary people on a minimum wage have left to live on, after they have paid all their bills?' He was really confused, and admitted that he had never actually realised that for ordinary people everything has to come out of the minimum wage, that it's not free money to spend on whatever you like.

"I sit next to this girl who has a son whom she never sees. She gets in very early, goes out very late, and the nanny sits at home. Money can never be a substitute for love, I don't think. Mind you, banks these days are incredibly PC about motherhood. They are fully aware of the laws on sexism and discrimination. In my mind they are really trying too hard. There's always some scheme or stand over-promoting the next workshops for mothers to be. One week it's Diversity Week, the next it's I-don't-know-what Week…

 

[el-ahrairah]

"White middle-class man knows perfect white middle class man for the job"

or, in a form lp might understand better

"white liberal oxbridge editor knows perfect white liberal oxbridge writer for the job"

 

[cesare]

Ah yeah, exactly (el). Word of mouth advertising. Recruiting more people "like us" so this workplace remains "like us".