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Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

FridgeMagnet said:
JC2: any further posts continuing this off-topic stuff and I will take action.

Similarly, of course, for anyone else continuing it.



My apologies for being disruptive.

I'll atone by resisting the urge to post anything further on the thread.

However, should you consider it necessary to take action, it might have the positive side effect of forcing me to get more actual, paying work done.

p.s. You're not striking out at me because of that 'beetle' exchange, are you? I ask only because you don't seem to have noticed nino's part in my little off-topic excursions.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: are al Qaida just a figment of everybody's imagination?
 
Who or what exactly is al Qaeda? The technical definition given is that it is a group of fighters loyal to Osama bin Laden. In fact it is better understood as something like a 'global ideology that has not only attracted many smaller regional groups, but has also facilitated the scores of other groups that embrace the same radical and violent thinking - united in a single aim of booting the US out of the Middle East and Central Asia. It is the causes of this Islamic radicalism that the US has sidestepped in choosing to deal with AQ through eradicating it.

In Afghanistan between 1996 to 2001 Bin Laden was able to give these different groups a central focus. It was not a huge disciplined group "with tentacles everywhere" but a temporary gathering of many different strands within modern Islamic militancy.

Few of those had links to OBL - they were local, radical Salafi groups with little or no lines of communication. Historian R T Naylor says "if any line of communication does exist, it is initiated from the people on the ground "upwards" to the presumed patriarch--not the other way around. Of course, from time to time some father-figure, if he really exists, might dish out some cash to some would-be followers or sycophants or hangers-on. But the notion that there is a firm "money trail" used so much in cop discourse, and now hijacked by the national security establishment, is foolish."

"Al Qaeda" consisted of three elements. The first element was the "al-Qaeda hard core", the few dozen associates who had stayed with bin Laden since the late 1980s. Their numbers were boosted by the number of experienced militants, most of whom had been active independently for several years, who made their way to Afghanistan to join bin Laden there. One such was Khaled Sheikh Mohammed who had been involved in attacks in the Philippines and elsewhere. Most of these militants came for purely pragmatic reasons. For men who had spent years trying to mobilise and act, struggling all the while with domestic security services, Afghanistan between 1996 and 2001 was like a department store for Islamic terrorists. Recruits, knowledge, ideas and even cash could be had off the shelf. Bin Laden and his associates were running a whole floor, the biggest, the best-stocked and the most glitzy.
However US intelligence never used the term "al Qaeda". During the 90's they talked of "middle Eastern extremists... working together to further the cause of radical Islam". It was only after the WTC bombing in 1993 that the FBI became aware of bin Laden but only as "one name among thousands".

US intelligence used the term "al Qaeda" for the first time after 1998 embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. It was used as a convenient label for a group with no formal name.

Having given bin Laden a name, western officials began to exaggerate the threat he posed. "in the quest to define the enemy, the US and its allies have helped to blow it out of proportion" wrote Dolnik and Kimberly McCloud of the Monerey Institute in 2002. After the 1998 bombings, US officials began to circulate posters and matchboxes featuring bin Laden's face and a reward for his capture in the Middle East and Central Asia, a process that 'transformed this little-known jihadist into a household name and, in some places, a symbol of heroic defiance' source

The International Institute for Strategic Studies in London has calculated that Al-Qaeda may count on 18,000 people: the 20,000 who have trained in Afghanistan, less 2,000 killed or captured. In fact, we know that 15 to 25 % of the militants who train return to Al-Qaeda. That would make them 1,000-3,000 people, but these numbers don't mean a lot since the terrorists no longer organize themselves the way they did before 2001. They're not trained in the training camps any more. It's friends, cousins, who give each other ideas among themselves and one day they have an idea they proceed to act on.

So it appears that there is no organizational structure to AQ. How could such a group have pulled of 911? Independent terror experts conclude that there was no super-efficient terrorist organization, if this is the case, how was it possible for Osama to pull of 911?

For America it is important that the myth of AQ persist as a bogeyman to justify permanent war. Without AQ the Bush administration would not have been able to rob Clinton's surplus for the military-industrial complex. The fear of AQ has been used to rob citizens of the UK and the US of their civil liberties; the US has the Patriot act and we in the UK now have the Anti[terror laws. AQ has been used to justify the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq which has culminated in the deaths of more than 100,000 innocent people. Serious questions need to be asked how this can be justified given what is known about AQ today.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Anyway, back to the topic at hand: are al Qaida just a figment of everybody's imagination?

No, but the fingers on their button were (are?) the americans. That's the myth, that the americans have nothing to do with their existence.

Which of course makes the americans responsible for 911.

With the mainstream media ignoring the story, we'll never have the evidence out in the public arena. Which leaves everyone with a simple choice: either accept that the US elite were behind the attacks, or don't accept it.

Of course, those of us with any kind of understanding of world affairs and the politics of the US and their CIA accept the proposal that the american elite caused 911 to happen.

Whereas those that don't accept it are living in cloud cuckoo land... ;) :D
 
fela fan said:
No, but the fingers on their button were (are?) the americans. That's the myth, that the americans have nothing to do with their existence.

Of course, those of us with any kind of understanding of world affairs and the politics of the US and their CIA accept the proposal that the american elite caused 911 to happen.
And that is not based on any conspiracy theory but conspiracy fact.

The Wolfowitz doctrine (spelled out clearly in the Project for a New American Century) was to increase military budget by about 100bn$. Wolfowitz argued that the US should wage war preemptively and it should be willingly to use military force unilaterally with or without allies - this was nessary to prevent the emergence of any future rivals and to secure access to vital resources, especially gulf oil. The PNAC believed to bring this about would be long and protracted without a catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new pearl harbour. (pdf)

911 was that catastrophic and catalyzing event.

The core of Bush policy was to manipulate the fear around 911 and to create a politics of fear - they could not have any political success in a state of tranquility or peace of mind. In fact, the administration has been responsibility for inciting the very terror that was supposedly the terrorist's intention to create in America.

19 men hijacking 4 planes was advanced to a global conspiracy of a shadowy terrorist group attacking the US which must be confronted. A decision was taken by the admin to take the attacks and turn it into a full fledged battle against good and evil framing it as "you are either with us or with the terrorists".

In this atmosphere, George W Bush, by invoking the memory of the 911 made the Wolfowitz doctrine official US policy, in the process setting the stage for the US invasion of Iraq. Brazenly announcing the right to attack preemptively, the US was officially rejecting article 51 of the UN charter - a cornerstone of international law enacted after WW11 and used to indict Nazis for war crimes at the Nuremburg trial, and a law designed explicitly to prevent nations from using military force to advance their own sense of national and moral superiority and prevent the kind of preemptive wars that ravaged the first half of the 20th century.

For the first time in history the US had moved outside international law. They want the US to outdo all previous empires not just in its longevity but its permanence. Its about power, domination and control of resources. They wanted people to believe that the invasion of iraq was a response to 911. 911 gave them the means to put in place plans that had first been floated in the first Bush administration and rejected not just by Bush senior but Clinton too..

Once GWB became president of the US he installed the neocons in govt positions, and from day one the attack on iraq was brought up and pushed. Richard Clarke says Bush told him "I want you to come up with proof that iraq did this (911)".

Without any evidence of SH links to 911, Rumsfeld got to work in the Office of Special Plans finding any info that could be linked to SH. Americans had to learn to be just as afraid of Saddam as they were of OBL. According to Lt Col Kwiatowski the OSP's job was to produce talking points on Iraq allegedly based on intelligence.

A relentless pr campaign was carried out to convince the american public that there was a link between Saddam and 911. The evidence was based on a very selective reading of the intelligence. Their policy depended on that deception - it was never about WMD, it was always about getting Saddam - the Bush admin knew that there were no weapons in iraq! The campaign was so successful that polls taken in 2003 showed that most people believed the lies.

Why Iraq? The US had consistently supported Iraq throughout the period of his worst crimes when his policy was consistent with their interests in the area and when those changed then Saddam was no longer useful. The US were never interested in liberating Iraqi people but liberating Iraq from Saddam and to have a military footprint there.

The neocon ideology is that if you have military force and you want something from a weaker country, then you use it to take that resource. Simple. On one hand it is described as an anti-terror strategy but underlying it is this blue print of increasing access and control of the worlds oil

The major reason for taking Iraq was to show imperial power, to show not just Arabs, but the Europeans and Chinese who was the master. "It doesn't matter if they love us or not, as long as they fear us."

Hijacking Catastrophe online video :straightforward analysis on Neocons, the American empire and war on terror.
 
Great post raisin, and good video!

One of the things that should alert any thinker on the topic is the sudden anthrax episodes that disappeared as quickly as they appeared.

The politics of fear. Introduced to the western world by bush, and continued to this day.

911 sure gave them all they needed. Whoever actually carried out the attacks is not really that relevant. What is, is that by accepting the premise that the events were organised from within the US elite, we can then understand exactly what is going on in this new century.

I look forward to the day that so many on this forum will have to face the reality that they continue to ignore for whatever reason.
 
fela fan said:
Great post raisin, and good video!

One of the things that should alert any thinker on the topic is the sudden anthrax episodes that disappeared as quickly as they appeared.

The politics of fear. Introduced to the western world by bush, and continued to this day.

911 sure gave them all they needed. Whoever actually carried out the attacks is not really that relevant. What is, is that by accepting the premise that the events were organised from within the US elite, we can then understand exactly what is going on in this new century.

I look forward to the day that so many on this forum will have to face the reality that they continue to ignore for whatever reason.


Just a small point.
"The politics of fear" have been around as long as aggression and warfare have. I'm quite sure that Ug the caveman riled up his fellow troglodytes to go over to the next valley and kick some "foreigner" arse thousands of years before the neo-con PNAC scum made a philosophy of it.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Just a small point.
"The politics of fear" have been around as long as aggression and warfare have. I'm quite sure that Ug the caveman riled up his fellow troglodytes to go over to the next valley and kick some "foreigner" arse thousands of years before the neo-con PNAC scum made a philosophy of it.

But tv has only been around a relatively short time. Dissemination of fear has never been easier or faster.
 
fela fan said:
But tv has only been around a relatively short time. Dissemination of fear has never been easier or faster.
I'm not sure if that's true. With no news sources or access to libraries, it would be quite easy for leaders/religious types to stir up the masses in past history by demonising an enemy.
 
fela fan said:
911 sure gave them all they needed. Whoever actually carried out the attacks is not really that relevant.
But wouldn't it be fun to hammer yet another nail into the coffin of 911 and expose how to this day, the FBI still do not have a single shred of evidence linking 911 to the 19 hijackers?
 
In any case, Bush didn't invent TV. Cold War propaganda, anyone? That was where the current neocons learned their skills... they were involved in the whole business.

TV is an interesting technology. As the editor points out, a poor information distribution system also means that people can't educate themselves so are going to be more vulnerable to propaganda. However, TV is both widely distributed - anyone can get it if they have a TV - as well as difficult and expensive to broadcast and thus controlled by specific interests. It's not like you can just look something up on TV, you watch what comes to you, and the fact that you can watch it does not specially enable you necessarily to get counter-proposals, as, say, being able to read in the Middle Ages would.

Luckily, nowadays we have the internet, designed by scientists to actually make it easy to distribute information, where any idiot can stick up a homepage.
 
editor said:
I'm not sure if that's true. With no news sources or access to libraries, it would be quite easy for leaders/religious types to stir up the masses in past history by demonising an enemy.

I agree. Ignorance within your population (as ever dictator worth his salt knows) makes it very easy to manipulate them. It's why authoritarian regimes nearly always ban certain forms of cultural expression such as newspapers and books, even forms of music.
 
And we are not manipulated in the same way? It's just the same as it ever was. The only difference between us and the next dictatorship is that our propagandists are in a different league.

I don't see that 'access to libraries' played a great role when we were fed propaganda that Saddam needed taking out. Television certainly did though.
 
DrJazzz said:
And we are not manipulated in the same way? It's just the same as it ever was. The only difference between us and the next dictatorship is that our propagandists are in a different league.

I don't see that 'access to libraries' played a great role when we were fed propaganda that Saddam needed taking out. Television certainly did though.
Err, I was talking about Ye Olde times where the general populace had no access to written information, and thus it was far easier for those in charge to control and manipulate information.

But if you think you're as propaganda-manipulated and as information-isolated as a 15th century serf with no contact with the world outside his local preacher/church, feel free.
 
editor said:
I'm not sure if that's true. With no news sources or access to libraries, it would be quite easy for leaders/religious types to stir up the masses in past history by demonising an enemy.
But in ye olde times there was always word of mouth and pamphleteering.
 
DrJazzz said:
And we are not manipulated in the same way? It's just the same as it ever was. The only difference between us and the next dictatorship is that our propagandists are in a different league.

I don't see that 'access to libraries' played a great role when we were fed propaganda that Saddam needed taking out. Television certainly did though.

Not quite, Dr J.

While I agree that there is always going to be a passive majority who seem to drift through life oblivious to how often they are manipulated, there is one thing that makes it less likely for the propagands to gain hegomony, and that is mass literacy, something that up until a hundred and fifty years ago was the purview of the middle and upper classes.

The sheer scale of literacy, allied to modern communications systems, means that it is much harder for the propagands to keep bad news (for them) in the bag in the way that used to see "information blackouts" being instituted and "D-notices" being issued.

As for "access to libraries". Access to alternative (to the media) sources of information are extremely important in informing oneself on a subject. A library serves that purpose admirably.
 
Raisin D'etre said:
But in ye olde times there was always word of mouth and pamphleteering.
FFS: in Ye Olde times, most people rarely went further than the next village, strangers were viewed with great suspicion and only a complete idiot would suggest that there was anything remotely comparable in today's society in terms of global, national and international information sharing.

And even if these mysterious leaflet-toting strangers roaming around the countryside survived the commonplace attacks, their pamphlets wouldn't be much use as vast sections of the population could neither read nor write.

And, of course, those who could read and write were usually those already in power - and were thus able to control and manipulate information.

(Hold on - haven't I already pointed this out?)
 
editor said:
But if you think you're as propaganda-manipulated and as information-isolated as a 15th century serf with no contact with the world outside his local preacher/church, feel free.

Feel free?

I don't. If you do, you are deluded. 'propanda-manipulated' and 'information isolated' are not the same thing - in fact they oppose each other. In some ways your illiterate 15C serf - a man concerned largely with minding his own business - will prove a tougher customer to manipulate than the likes of many on these boards.

Here's something I just pulled about conmen and their victims. It's the same with propaganda.

"The biggest misconception about fraud is that the victims are stupid. The truth is, con artists prefer intelligent people. First, smart people are more likely to have money. Second, smart people are easier to fool precisely because they think they're too smart to get scammed. We deal with victims who are doctors, lawyers, judges -- even cops. The easiest people to deceive are those who think that they are immune to deception."

source

I suggest you note that last line very carefully, editor
 
DrJ: Right, so you'd feel more informed and less vulnerable to propaganda if I moved you back a few decades or removed your internet connection? Don't be daft.

Information control is and has always been the aim of dictators and oligarchs; they can use technology for that and they also have to confront it. Nowadays we have an enormous and open bandwidth available to us. We are inherently better off. I can look up multiple encyclopedia articles on anything I choose within seconds. I would have killed for that when I was younger.
 
ViolentPanda said:
Not quite, Dr J.

While I agree that there is always going to be a passive majority who seem to drift through life oblivious to how often they are manipulated, there is one thing that makes it less likely for the propagands to gain hegomony, and that is mass literacy, something that up until a hundred and fifty years ago was the purview of the middle and upper classes.

The sheer scale of literacy, allied to modern communications systems, means that it is much harder for the propagands to keep bad news (for them) in the bag in the way that used to see "information blackouts" being instituted and "D-notices" being issued.

As for "access to libraries". Access to alternative (to the media) sources of information are extremely important in informing oneself on a subject. A library serves that purpose admirably.
But isnt it surprising that it is the intelligentsia that are most susceptible to propaganda?
 
That wasn't what I was saying at all Fridgemagnet. The internet is indeed a great help especially as it is uncontrolled. You may find nuggets of truth, say like the WMD in Iraq issue was a load of bollocks, cropping up on cranky, unofficial websites with books to flog.
 
DrJazzz said:
That wasn't what I was saying at all Fridgemagnet. The internet is indeed a great help especially as it is uncontrolled. You may find nuggets of truth, say like the WMD in Iraq issue was a load of bollocks, cropping up on cranky, unofficial websites with books to flog.
What were you saying then?
 
Raisin D'etre said:
But isnt it surprising that it is the intelligentsia that are most susceptible to propaganda?
They're not the most susceptible to propaganda; they're just not as impervious as they think they are.
 
DrJazzz said:
I don't. If you do, you are deluded. 'propanda-manipulated' and 'information isolated' are not the same thing - in fact they oppose each other.
Total rubbish. An illiterate serf could be 'manipulated' by self-serving propaganda from his local preacher/landowner/leader who could use his literacy to only reveal news and facts that served his cause.

But just to clear one thing up: are you still clinging to your ridiculous suggestion that we are "manipulated in the same way" as a serf in a remote village with only one source of self-censoring outside information?
 
Raisin D'etre said:
Im not going to argue that point, your words express it more elegantly... :)
I can't quite tell whether you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me here... excuse me, I've had a bit of wine.
 
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