invisibleplanet
porter des cornes
You've lost me now, Raisin.
I think I'd better retire for the night.
I think I'd better retire for the night.
Johnny Canuck2 said:What conclusions?
I didn't see any conclusions.
I don't suppose you have a single ounce of proof to back up that fucking ridiculous assertion, have you? Come on: put some names to these people you claim to represent. Exactly who is "too afraid" to say what they think and why?Raisin D'etre said:Well actually, most people are too afraid to say what they think on urban,
There's been endless threads on those subjects with post counts well into the thousands. So you're demonstrably talking deluded shite. And that's a fact!Raisin D'etre said:You seem to have a particular interest in preventing any kind of discussion occuring around 911 and the BBC.
No, that's the work of you and your cohorts like Dr Jazzz and bigfish, who relentlessly full these boards with incredible garbage about invisible missile-firing pretend planes, CIA squads of Mike Yarwoods, holographic planes, invisible planes, missiles made to look like planes, vanishing passengers, self exploding WTC towers, Huntley being innocent and all the other bullshit you scoop up from laughable sites.Raisin D'etre said:I start this thread and I get one person immediately saying he is going to unsubscribe from the "fantasy" thread, another refers to this as a "lizard" thread. Thats your grand work
ViolentPanda said:You rarely bother to look further than the surface, do you?
Q: Why was ObL in Afghanistan?
A: Because the US government had put pressure on the Sudanese govt to expel him (the same Sudanese govt that had offered to hand ObL over to the US).
Q: Did "al Qaida" only have training camps in Afghanistan?
A: No, they had them throughout about 70% of the "Muslim world".
Q: Did ObL make a significant contribution to the funding of the Taliban?
A: No, in fact, given the Taliban's access to monies from opium sales, they actually contributed money to ObL's cause.
Which has what precisely to do with attacking Iraq?
Sorry, but you appear to be writing with reference to illogic rather than logic here.
Hours after the 9/11 attacks, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is given information that three of the names on the airplane passenger manifests are suspected al-Qaeda operatives. The notes he composes at the time are leaked nearly a year later. Rumsfeld writes he wants the “best info fast. Judge whether good enough hit S.H. (Saddam Hussein) at same time. Not only UBL. (Usama bin Laden) Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related and not.” (CBS, 9/4/02)
Dr_Evil said:So its americas fault for OBL going to Afghanistan then? Did the CIA manufacture that deliberately in the hopes that he would attack the US and they could use that as an excuse to invade? Put on your shiny silver hate mate. OBL went there because it was a sympathetic regime in charge.
AQ may well have had training camps over 70% of the world, but which ones were used to train the 9/11 hijackers? That would be AFGHANISTAN! And to reinforce the point, which country was OBL in? AFGHANISTAN! hence why the yanks never invaded iran, indonesia or anyother muslim country (until they chose iraq). That is the reason they attacked Afghanistan.
Yes, OBL did make significant contributions to the Taliban, in the form of money, manpower (to keep them in power, see the killing of Ahmed Shah Masood, the celebrated resistance fighter who led opposition to the Taleban) which was attributed to 2 AQ operatives) and resources (see buldozers, excavators etc)
And the last point you quoted was in relation to someone elses point who raised the poin that the yanks immediately thought they could justify attacking iraq.
Seems like you are the one talikng illogically!
Johnny Canuck2 said:I guess this is what you get when you box a conspiracy theorist into a corner...
nino_savatte said:I think the US should shoulder some of the blame for 'creating' OBL. After all, the US created the conditions for all this to flourish...unless you know something we don't.
editor said:I don't suppose you have a single ounce of proof to back up that fucking ridiculous assertion, have you? Come on: put some names to these people you claim to represent. Exactly who is "too afraid" to say what they think and why?
Names please.
<snip>
And the irony is that you don't even see that if anyone's preventing a grown up discussion happening on these subjects, it's the conspiraloon gang.
PS Don't forget the names of those scared little lambs who are too tewwfied to say what they think here!
Not necessary, you know their names. I have seen with my own eyes how they follow your lead and jump on posters when you issue the attack command "conspiraloon". How timely of JC2 to arrive on the thread just as you were launching one of your attacks on me. A pattern does begin to emerge, but then you'd call me a conspiracy theorist for suggesting that!editor said:I don't suppose you have a single ounce of proof to back up that fucking ridiculous assertion, have you? Come on: put some names to these people you claim to represent. Exactly who is "too afraid" to say what they think and why?
Names please.
This is a discussion board and if I or anyone else want to talk about holograms and so on, why not let us? Wouldn't that be the most effective way of showing that we were conspiracy theorists? To accuse me of being in cohorts with the above mentioned people is a conspiracy theory. Provide facts! As I haven't actually contributed to any of the above discussions that you have listed, I think you are just trying to derail this thread using your tried and tested formula of linking any critical questions (about Al Qaeda and 911) to the more "colourful" discussions that have gone on here, thereby insinuating that I am a "conspiraloon". I don't intend to deal in conspiracies but facts. The premise of this thread is was AQ an invention used by the US to advance their imperial ambitions. There are some people who believe the official version whereas I simply don't and for reasons that I want to show. It gets tedious having to address the conspiraloon charge everytime a new thread on something controversial is started.There's been endless threads on those subjects with post counts well into the thousands. So you're demonstrably talking deluded shite. And that's a fact!
No, that's the work of you and your cohorts like Dr Jazzz and bigfish, who relentlessly full these boards with incredible garbage about invisible missile-firing pretend planes, CIA squads of Mike Yarwoods, holographic planes, invisible planes, missiles made to look like planes, vanishing passengers, self exploding WTC towers, Huntley being innocent and all the other bullshit you scoop up from laughable sites. And the irony is that you don't even see that if anyone's preventing a grown up discussion happening on these subjects, it's the conspiraloon gang.
editor said:so what makes you think you know the truth when so few people seem to agree with you?
Thank you Fela!fela fan said:She has consistently displayed a far greater knowledge (or 'truth' if you prefer) and a far keener understanding on topics belonging to this forum than you have.
You should just accept that with the minimum of fuss, coz it's a basic fact. I mean, you always intimate that those who speak what the majority speaks are those that are right. And any lone voice, or minority voice, is wrong, coz they are, er... er, not in the majority!! Unbeleivable logic!
Dr_Evil said:Well i dont think they are to blame for OBL himself but i do believe that their actions are partially to blame for the rise of islamic fundametnalism. The main reason he fights agains the US and the west was the fact that the saudis invited the west to protect them and to use their land to fight Saddam Hussein during GW1 and their continued presence after the war. He was intensly annoyed at their continued presence in muslim holyland (near mecca and medina)
You know what fela? I think editor is really just indulging in a bit of gentle leg-pulling... he believes in independence of thought really... well I hope he does! ain't that right ed?fela fan said:She has consistently displayed a far greater knowledge (or 'truth' if you prefer) and a far keener understanding on topics belonging to this forum than you have.
You should just accept that with the minimum of fuss, coz it's a basic fact. I mean, you always intimate that those who speak what the majority speaks are those that are right. And any lone voice, or minority voice, is wrong, coz they are, er... er, not in the majority!! Unbeleivable logic!
invisibleplanet said:I gave clear, sourced, & verifiable information about how the CIA built up and funded OBL and his organisation and their funding of the Afghan training camps during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.
I think you ought to read those posts.
I think you'll find that OBL knew that once the objective (removing Russia from Afghanistan) was achieved, that America would take action against the Taleban and he himself would be 'surplus' to their requirements, and a great intelligence liability.
Didn't he only decide to be against America when he was turned down for the job to keep Saddam out of Saudi Arabia? I honestly dont think bin Laden is as 'international' or 'global' as he is made out to be. I think he is in fact quite localised (to Saudi Arabia) but acts on the international stage (WTC, Bali, etc). I dont think after the Afghanistan war ended he knew his battle would be with America he only decided that when they 'occupied' Saudi Arabia (and cos he got the knock back too)invisibleplanet said:And we ought to consider, that OBL was aware that the concrete assistance he accepted from the CIA to train muhajadeen to fight Soviet Occupation would end once the Soviets were driven out of Afghanistan, and to all intents and purposes, USA would then become 'the new Russians' to threaten Afghanistani Sovereignty. OBL's fight would then become a fight to keep American Corporations and troops out of Afghanistan and other Islamic countries.
It's just saying it coherently that seems to cause you problems.Johnny Canuck2 said:I don't have any problem saying what I think on urban.
If you think al Q is a myth, then I think you're deluded.
Don't put words into my mouth please. It is something only the ignorant and desparate do.Dr_Evil said:So its americas fault for OBL going to Afghanistan then? Did the CIA manufacture that deliberately in the hopes that he would attack the US and they could use that as an excuse to invade? Put on your shiny silver hate mate. OBL went there because it was a sympathetic regime in charge.
70% of the "Muslim world", you dunderhead.AQ may well have had training camps over 70% of the world, but which ones were used to train the 9/11 hijackers? That would be AFGHANISTAN! And to reinforce the point, which country was OBL in? AFGHANISTAN! hence why the yanks never invaded iran, indonesia or anyother muslim country (until they chose iraq). That is the reason they attacked Afghanistan.
In which case it is odd, is it not, that you chose to claim that the Taliban made significant contributions to ObL?Yes, OBL did make significant contributions to the Taliban, in the form of money, manpower (to keep them in power, see the killing of Ahmed Shah Masood, the celebrated resistance fighter who led opposition to the Taleban) which was attributed to 2 AQ operatives) and resources (see buldozers, excavators etc)
I think I've established, to a reasonable degree of accuracy, that the illogic is firmly in your part of the narrative.And the last point you quoted was in relation to someone elses point who raised the poin that the yanks immediately thought they could justify attacking iraq.
Seems like you are the one talikng illogically!
ViolentPanda said:Don't put words into my mouth please. It is something only the ignorant and desparate do.
I said that ObL was in Sudan and that Sudan offered to extradite him to the US. ObL was then expelled by Sudan, and sought refuge in the Afghan border region (actually comprising parts of Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan's unpoliced independent tribal territories. ObL didn't "go to Afghanistan", he went to an area that encompasses parts of 2 countries (Afghanistan proper was never entirely under Taliban control) that happened to have a high volume of people whose religious and social ideas were in accordance with his own.
I don't for a moment believe that the "CIA manufactured that", I do believe that it was a detail that was taken advantage of/put to good use at a later date. The available data supports such a view.
As for "tin foil hates" [sic]. Grow up.
If i had wanted to put words in your mouth i would have used "quotation marks", not a question mark (which implies that i am asking you something, albeit rhetorical)
Regardless of wether he was in the border region or not, he was being supported by the tyranical government in AFGHANISTAN, therefore the USA only had the right to invade afghanistan!
70% of the "Muslim world", you dunderhead.
Your point about the training camps is also at odds with reality. I think you'll find that the Saudi hijackers also trained in Somalia and Saudi Arabia.
Also, ObL (as has been emphasised previously) was in one region of Afghanistan, a fact that meant that an attack on Afghanistan-proper was not necessary.
In which case it is odd, is it not, that you chose to claim that the Taliban made significant contributions to ObL?
I appologise, i meant to put in muslim, but in hy haste missed it out.However, once again the countires that had other AQ bases were not aiding the AQ recruitment and training like the taliban were. The fact that OBL was in one region is incosequential, as the point was to destroy AQ which had camps all over the country, hence why the whole country was invaded.
I think I've established, to a reasonable degree of accuracy, that the illogic is firmly in your part of the narrative.
invisibleplanet said:I gave clear, sourced, & verifiable information about how the CIA built up and funded OBL and his organisation and their funding of the Afghan training camps during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.
I think you ought to read those posts.
I think you'll find that OBL knew that once the objective (removing Russia from Afghanistan) was achieved, that America would take action against the Taleban and he himself would be 'surplus' to their requirements, and a great intelligence liability.
I think you'll find that OBL knew that once the objective (removing Russia from Afghanistan) was achieved, that America would take action against the Taleban and he himself would be 'surplus' to their requirements, and a great intelligence liability.
You implied that I'd stated a position (along the lines of America being to blame for ObL being in Afghanistan) that I hadn't. If that isn't "putting words in my mouth", I'd like to know what is.Dr_Evil said:If i had wanted to put words in your mouth i would have used "quotation marks", not a question mark (which implies that i am asking you something, albeit rhetorical)
You don't get it, do you? THERE IS NO "GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN". THERE HAS BEEN NO "GOVERNMENT OF AFGHANISTAN" FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS. All there are/has been is a succession of regional warlords, and a rump government that controlled/controls (whichever one was in power, from Najibullah to the Taliban) about a third (at most) of the territory defined as comprising the nation-state of Afghanistan.Regardless of wether he was in the border region or not, he was being supported by the tyranical government in AFGHANISTAN, therefore the USA only had the right to invade afghanistan!
Spurious. The Taliban did not "have camps all over the country", they had them in the Taliban (majority Pashtun)-held areas of Afghanistan and in the Pakistani (Pashtun) tribal territories. Odd how Pakistan (where ObL, if still alive, most likely is hiding) hasn't been subjected to invasion, isn't it?I appologise, i meant to put in muslim, but in hy haste missed it out.However, once again the countires that had other AQ bases were not aiding the AQ recruitment and training like the taliban were. The fact that OBL was in one region is incosequential, as the point was to destroy AQ which had camps all over the country, hence why the whole country was invaded.
Only if you're illogical!That is open to deabte
cynical_bastard said:The Taliban didn't exist during the Soviet occupation, they were formed as a reaction to the corrupt Mujahideen. And America was quite willing to take a "business as usual" stance to them right up until 9/11.
Amnesty International said:The outside governments that have offered political and material support to Afghanistan’s warring factions over many years have an opportunity and responsibility to hold them to account to international norms of behaviour, particularly the minimum standards set out in international humanitarian law. Economic actors, such as the US oil company, Unocal, Saudi Arabian company Delta Oil and Argentinian oil company Bridas who are reportedly competing to build a $2billion natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan from Central Asia should also use any leverage they have on the Taleban and other groups to command respect for human rights. Amnesty International is appealing to the international community to ensure that concern for the human rights of all Afghans is not put second to other political and economic strategic interests
source: Unocal and the Afghanistan pipeline, Part One of a two-part series Players on a rigged grand chessboard:March 2002Unocal and the Afghanistan pipeline said:In 1997, Taliban officials traveled twice to Washington, D.C. and Buenos Aires to be wined and dined by Unocal and Bridas. No agreements were signed.
It appeared to Unocal that the Taliban was balking. In addition to royalties, the Taliban demanded funding for infrastructure projects, including roads and power plants. The Taliban also announced plans to revive the Afghan National Oil Company, which had been abolished by the Soviet regime in the late 1970s.
Osama bin Laden (who issued his fatwa against the West in 1998) advised the Taliban to sign with Bridas. In addition to offering the Taliban a higher bid, Bridas proposed an open pipeline accessible to warlords and local users. Unocal's pipeline was closed—for export purposes only. Bridas' plan also did not require outside financing, while Unocal's required a loan from the western financial institutions (the World Bank), which in turn would leave Afghanistan vulnerable to demands from western governments.
Bridas' approach to business was more to the Taliban's liking. Where Bulgheroni and Bridas' engineers would take the time to "sip tea with Afghan tribesmen," Unocal's American executives issued top-down edicts from corporate headquarters and the US Embassy (including a demand to open talks with the CIA-backed Northern Alliance).
OBL had no sympathy for the regime! He was recruited as a member of the Mujihadeen who had flooded into the country to fight the Soviets in the 80's.Dr_Evil said:So its americas fault for OBL going to Afghanistan then? Did the CIA manufacture that deliberately in the hopes that he would attack the US and they could use that as an excuse to invade? Put on your shiny silver hate mate. OBL went there because it was a sympathetic regime in charge.
nino_savatte said:Schadenfreude Johnny? You won't be laughing when your turn comes...and it's coming real soon.
nino_savatte said:Schadenfreude Johnny? You won't be laughing when your turn comes...and it's coming real soon.
We had this bullshit before, and you spectacularly failed to substantiate your frankly offensive claims about all these mysterious (i.e non existent) posters supposedly deserting the boards because they were "too scared" to post.fela fan said:And then there'll be all the competent posters who simply left due to problems stating their voices.