Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

[fela fan]

You are wrong because too many people agree with you. It's obvious, isn't it?

Nothing's obvious lock. Nothing. It may seem like that, but it's not.

Get it?

 

[bigfish]

Any chance of an answer FM?

... I've seen every single fucking video imaginable. I wish I'd not bothered, but I'm careful like that, in case there's anything I've missed, and there've never been.

You didn't miss that humungous kerosine fireball explode through the east face of tower 2 then? So, what source fueled the "raging inferno" that weakened the fire resistant steel framework to the point where it collapsed neatly into its own footprint? Do you think that it was just "some" of the aircraft fuel load and not all of it that did the trick, as the editor seems to imply and if you do then how come tower 2 managed to come down first even though it was attacked last and had even less fuel present than tower 1?

 

[fela fan]

Oh, yeah, it's clearly been proved that I'm wrong about 911.

What do I think about 911 incidentally?

No it hasn't been clearly proved at all, nor have i attempted to show that. I've just stated that you're wrong about what you say about me on the topic of 911.

 

[fela fan]

What do I think about 911 incidentally?

Why not tell me? Surely you know by now?

 

[tarannau]

No it hasn't been clearly proved at all, nor have i attempted to show that. I've just stated that you're wrong about what you say about me on the topic of 911.

Actually it's 119

That's what one person told me anyway. Fuck the hundreds of other media corporations and indirect witness repotts that gave me 911 as the date - I met this bloke down the pub and he told me it in person - 'I only subscribe to what i've personally experienced, everything else is open to debate' and therefore he must be speaking the truth.

What an ludicrously illogical pile of contradictory toshshite...

 

[Lock&Light]

Nothing's obvious lock. Nothing. It may seem like that, but it's not.

Get it?

Do you really want me to 'get it', fela.

If I was to start agreeing with you wouldn't the number of believers tip dangerously closer to three or four out of every thousand.

In time your whole belief system could come under threat from being shared by the majority.

 

[editor]

Nothing's obvious lock. Nothing. It may seem like that, but it's not.

Get it?

FFS: Spare us the laughable pearls of cod spirituality.

It's fucking pretty obvious to me that I'm tying on my keyboard right now.

So what's not 'obvious' about that then, dear beer guru?

 

[neilh]

If I was to start agreeing with you wouldn't the number of believers tip dangerously closer to three or four out of every thousand.

i think it's significantly higher than that who don't believe the official story or believe the whole thing was allowed to happen or made to happen by the US.

 

[fela fan]

It's fucking pretty obvious to me that I'm tying on my keyboard right now.

Ribbons? String? I don't man, not obvious to me at all. And why you should be tying anything to your keyboard certainly ain't obvious to me.

Very strange activity.

 

[Lock&Light]

i think it's significantly higher than that who don't believe the official story or believe the whole thing was allowed to happen or made to happen by the US.

Depends on what you mean by 'significantly', but I was actually referring to fela's beliefs, and they are not (yet) shared by so many.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

fela: But you're wrong. And in debating things with me, that is certainly not the first time.

Me: Like...?

fela: 911

Me: Oh, yeah, it's clearly been proved that I'm wrong about 911. What do I think about 911 incidentally?

fela: No it hasn't been clearly proved at all, nor have i attempted to show that. I've just stated that you're wrong about what you say about me on the topic of 911.

Note the slight problem here.

1. fela says that I am wrong about 911
2. fela then says that he said that I am wrong about what I say about him on the topic of 911

See also

If 98 people say one thing and 2 say the other, then i'll nearly always reckon the 2 are right...

vs

Strange coz you've changed my meaning. I don't subscribe to the majority is right. That's the numbers i'm talking about.

and previous examples ad nauseam. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela, because either he's got some strange disorder which makes him incapable of expressing himself the first time round, or he routinely pretends that he said something that he clearly didn't when it becomes apparent that the first statement was balls - one of the two, I can't think of any other explanations.

 

[fela fan]

i think it's significantly higher than that who don't believe the official story or believe the whole thing was allowed to happen or made to happen by the US.

And in fact in non-western countries neilh, it's a very significantly high number who believe the US had their finger on the pulse, so to speak.

It's just the western audience who have this problem. Mainly coz they just cannot bring themselves to believe that their wonderful democracies could produce such maniacal killers that would kill their own.

Oh no, that is the preseve of china and other countires like that.

Basically the whole argument against the US being involved in 911 is based on this belief that they'd not kill their own.

Pretty feeble quicksand if you ask me!

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You didn't miss that humungous kerosine fireball explode through the east face of tower 2 then? So, what source fueled the "raging inferno" that weakened the fire resistant steel framework to the point where it collapsed neatly into its own footprint? Do you think that it was just "some" of the aircraft fuel load and not all of it that did the trick, as the editor seems to imply and if you do then how come tower 2 managed to come down first even though it was attacked last and had even less fuel present than tower 1?

I have this funny feeling that it's not going to make any difference what I reply here though, unless it's "oh yeah you're right it can't possibly have been the plane".

 

[kropotkin]

kropotkin ... "can I defend this statement?"

Not really, as I have said many times here I find Chomsky's use of evidence highly suspect and so about five years ago stopped reading his stuff because I found I could not rely on his material to be accurate.

Talking from memory, I found that his approach - to paraphrase 'I have found the truth and everyone else refuses to recognise it', largely because of their own self interest (cf. his arguments about liberals; note fela's accusation against me on this page) - particularly useless when it comes to understanding the world.

If in fact Chomsky was far more reasonable, and did not accuse liberals of being 'just as bad as all the rest', did not misquote people in the NYT, did not infer dodgy conclusions from rather arbitrary connections, then I stand corrected. This is how I remember his writing, however.

(And fela, just because there's lots of notes means nothing - Bjorn Lomborg says tackling climate change is wrong and he uses more notes than all of Chomsky put together - does this make him right?!)

But if it rocks your boat, makes sense for you, don't let me stop you. (I promise not to rise to any more Chomsky-related threads ... really must work!!)

That doesn't address anything I referred to, or anything in the post you were responding to.

 

[fela fan]

but I was actually referring to fela's beliefs, and they are not (yet) shared by so many.

But for you to know that for sure, that means you know what the many believe. How do you know?

In my life, many many people share what i believe. But it's not in cloud cuckoo western land...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Basically the whole argument against the US being involved in 911 is based on this belief that they'd not kill their own.

Reasons why it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela #2 - he pays no attention to what anyone's arguments are and just replies to what he would like them to be.

 

[neilh]

Depends on what you mean by 'significantly', but I was actually referring to fela's beliefs, and they are not (yet) shared by so many.

right, i got the feeling that fela was undecided and reasonably open minded about the specifics of what did happen, but thought it wasn't the mainstream story; certainly this seems to be the most common belief among folk who don't believe the mainstream story and IMO is more than 0.3-0.4% but mebbe i've misinterpreted fela's beliefs.

 

[fela fan]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela, because either he's got some strange disorder which makes him incapable of expressing himself the first time round, or he routinely pretends that he said something that he clearly didn't when it becomes apparent that the first statement was balls - one of the two, I can't think of any other explanations.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, does not explain why if it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela, that fridge does precisely that.

Unless fridge likes to waste time that is.

btw, neither of your prognoses are correct. Try thinking harder...

 

[neilh]

But for you to know that for sure, that means you know what the many believe. How do you know?

In my life, many many people share what i believe. But it's not in cloud cuckoo western land...

has anyone else got much experience of outside the western world's views on the whole thing? cos it's hard to tell what folk in africa, latin america etc are thinking on it and i would be interested to know about this.
as for cloud cukoo western land, i think that's a bit insulting to most folk here who i think have more of a clue about a lot of stuff than is made out by some.

 

[fela fan]

right, i got the feeling that fela was undecided and reasonably open minded about the specifics of what did happen, but thought it wasn't the mainstream story; certainly this seems to be the most common belief among folk who don't believe the mainstream story and IMO is more than 0.3-0.4% but mebbe i've misinterpreted fela's beliefs.

I cannot accept the official story for sure neilh!

I know nothing of what really happened, coz i'm not privvy to the info that can say for sure either way.

But i'm one fucking suspicious person regarding the involvement of the US elites over 911. Based on my whole life context. And if we could bet on it and have a finite answer, i'd put virtually all my possessions on it being the US elites wot did it!

 

[bigfish]

Err, because some of the fuel went inside and some went outside?

I see that to avoid giving a clear and straightforward reply this time round you have chosen to frame your 'answer' as a rhetorical suggestion by the cunning expedient of adding a question mark. Just so there can be no misunderstanding, can I ask you to clarify for the forum precisely what you mean by "some [of the fuel] went outside."

For example, do you mean that "some of the fuel went outside" of the east face of the tower? Or do you mean that "some of the fuel went outside" of the north face of the tower? Or do you mean that some of the fuel went outside both the east and north faces of the tower?

 

[fela fan]

has anyone else got much experience of outside the western world's views on the whole thing? cos it's hard to tell what folk in africa, latin america etc are thinking on it and i would be interested to know about this.
as for cloud cukoo western land, i think that's a bit insulting to most folk here who i think have more of a clue about a lot of stuff than is made out by some.

But i wasn't meaning folk on urban mate! I can't go into why i said that here, take too long. But there is a significantly different attitude and belief system towards 911 and what was behind it in countries outside of US and UK. Some of it is in the area of:

'Serves them right.'

'For sure the US were behind it all.'

'Israel were involved.'

'How can a man operating in a cave bring down the icons of capitalist america?'

'They got was coming to them.'

'Why were so fewer people than normal in the WTC towers that day?'

'This is what the powerful do (coz they do it in our country).'

And so on.

 

[neilh]

But i wasn't meaning folk on urban mate!

neither was I; i think if anything i've seen more folk streniously defending the official story here.

 

[fela fan]

he pays no attention to what anyone's arguments are and just replies to what he would like them to be.

See, blatantly wrong again. I pay lots of attention to well-reasoned arguments, but there's not a lot of them from those on this forum that chuck out the 'conspiraloon' tag.

Just waffle.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I cannot accept the official story for sure neilh!

I know nothing of what really happened, coz i'm not privvy to the info that can say for sure either way.

But i'm one fucking suspicious person regarding the involvement of the US elites over 911. Based on my whole life context. And if we could bet on it and have a finite answer, i'd put virtually all my possessions on it being the US elites wot did it!

Reasons why it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela #3 - when pushed he will never justify his beliefs in any comprehensible manner whatsoever, and doesn't "do" evidence.

 

[fela fan]

neither was I; i think if anything i've seen more folk streniously defending the official story here.

And that is the amazing thing. Never give their reasons, they instead like to disparage those that disbelieve it with well-worn 'conspiraloon' type vocabulary.

On the other hand, i, due to where i live, get to speak to folk from many different countries, and the overwhelming view is that something is very fishy indeed. To put it underwhelmingly...

 

[fela fan]

Reasons why it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela #3 - when pushed he will never justify his beliefs in any comprehensible manner whatsoever, and doesn't "do" evidence.

And you, are guilty of debating the poster, not the posts.

All these 'reasons' why its a waste of time, yet you do it. Why?

 

[fela fan]

Reasons why it's a waste of time discussing anything with fela #3 - when pushed he will never justify his beliefs in any comprehensible manner whatsoever, and doesn't "do" evidence.

Oh, and you're blatantly wrong yet again! Do you do this for money?

I have posted up many credible links on the topic of 911. I have posted up stuff to back up what i'm saying.

Did you not see it, or are you feeling forgetful?

 

[freke]

kropotkin, what I was trying to say is that I only have a limited amount of time to research, what with there being so much good material in the world, and when I realised that Chomsky was imposing his ideology on his use of source material I stopped reading his work as there are better authors out there that do not do this.

I would prefer to read other authors, ones that do not feel the need to bend facts, rather than continuing to read Chomsky but constantly needing to double-check every source he gives, in case he's decided to give it his own spin.

If you want 'proof' that he does this, I'm not about to go off and read another Chomsky just for this board. I have already done one article re Pilger. And anyway those that believe in Chomsky believe in Chomsky. Whatever I say ain't gonna make a blind bit of difference.

As someone that professionally researches and writes, I tend to have as much respect for an author as that author respects their material.

 

[editor]

I see that to avoid giving a clear and straightforward reply this time round you have chosen to frame your 'answer' as a rhetorical suggestion by the cunning expedient of adding a question mark. Just so there can be no misunderstanding, can I ask you to clarify for the forum precisely what you mean by "some [of the fuel] went outside."

For example, do you mean that "some of the fuel went outside" of the east face of the tower? Or do you mean that "some of the fuel went outside" of the north face of the tower? Or do you mean that some of the fuel went outside both the east and north faces of the tower?

I'm afraid that I can't break down the exact location of every single drop of fuel as there was rather a large explosion and fuel tends to explode out in all directions thereafter.

Do you think there was explosives already in the towers then?