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Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

fela fan said:
Btw, would you really put your family's life at risk in your drive to let the world know about what had pissed you off?
Err, I'd say I'd be a little more than 'pissed off' if a loved one had just been murdered by the government.

:rolleyes:

Perhaps you'd meekly carry on as if nothing had happened, but that wouldn't do for me. After all, if they'd 'murdered' one member of my family, they could murder many others, so I'd make full use of the world's media to present my solid evidence of the crime.

(Assuming I had some of course, and hadn't been dredging it up from conspiraloon sites)
 
fela fan, it’s a shame that you have to bring personal insults and attacks into the debate, but then that’s always been a part of your ‘debating style’, such that it is, so I guess I should not be surprised.

As maybe befits your age, you seem to have forgotten we’ve had this debate before, and – probably not surprisingly to some here – you made the same points, including adzp’s nasty little argument that I only believe the things that I do for my own personal advancement. An ad hominem attack indeed!

Maybe you need a reminder …

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=88642&page=6&pp=25

If you read it through, you’ll note that you end up saying that my position on Pilger was “quite persuasive”. Anyway, it seems you still don’t know the meaning of the word courteous.

Just because Pilger and Chomsky say what you want to hear does not in itself make it true. In fact those that tell us what we want to hear, we should be even more sceptical of because we should know that our defences are down.

Bernie, yeah Chomsky’s media model does have its strengths. But Gramschian ideas of hegemonies and counter-hegemonies are so much more powerful, are less dependent on accepting a binary model of the idealised people versus the big bad elite, and rely so much less on relying on Chomsky, whose treatment of evidence is too poor to be of much use.
 
"Why don't you give us your evidence/arguments against chomsky claiming that a small cabal rule things for their own self-interest?"

Because that wouldn't be pertinent to the point I was making. The point I was making that if one accepts that there is such a cabal, then this can lead one onto conspiratorial thinking. Whether or not there is a cabal is fairly irrelevant to that chain of logic.

"You're a wannabe mate. You're jealous of the likes of those two icons of journalism."

Putting aside what you might be ... First, Chomsky isn't a journalist; second, I would never wish to reach the same levels of sanctimonous and hypocritical moral grandstanding that Pilger does today; third, if you want evidence from me, just go back to the link above; fourth, why does no academic treat Pilger and Chomsky seriously? Is it a) because all the world is against them (with their comfortable sinecures at MIT etc); or b) because their evidence and conclusions - particularly in the area of US foreign policy (excepting Pilger in Cambodia in the 70s) - is too unreliable to be used?

Just in case you were wondering ... I had a very left-wing lecturer on US foreign policy when I did my first degree, but he, for example, refused to accept any arguments based upon Chomsky.
 
freke said:
Chomsky opens the door to conspiratorial thinking, by arguing powerfully that 1) there is a small cabal of people in charge of government and business; 2) they only ever act in their own self interest. If you accept these two points then you are half-way towards accepting conspiracy theories. (This is not to say that you *will* accept conspiracy theories, but as you have already accepted a set of conspiratorial ideas, it must be more likely.)
This is a weak argument to rest your claim that Chomsky is a polemicist. But let's just say that his work does open the door to conspiratorial thinking, he can hardly be blamed for that. For example, if a doctor prescribes medicine for an ailment, it is not his fault if the patient refuses to take it as prescribed.

In answer to points 1 & 2: In any govt or any corporation, it is a fact that there will be "a small cabal of people in charge". The decisions they make are hardly open or democratic. A corporation is hardly likely to allow rivals free access to its board meetings. Directors will meet in secret to discuss strategies that will give them an advantage over their rivals. They will naturally act in their own interest. For instance, Eli Lilly develops Prozac to corner the market in anti-depressants. Despite the fact that the company had conducted human testing trials that lasted a mere six weeks, the FDA gave the drug its approval. In the footnotes of "Toxic Psychiatry" (p.185) written by Jeffrey Mason we find this little gem:

If it turns out that Prozac received especially favourable treatment from the FDA, or that it had an extraordinary boost from the FDA, political influence may be at work. Eli Lilly, based in Indianopolis, was a large contributor to the senatorial campaigns of Dan Quayle. In addition, according to the October 2, 1988 Washington Post, 'Quayle's uncle, William C. Murphy, opened Lilly's government relations office in Washington in 1964 and his 1980 campaign manager, Mark D. Miles, went to work for the company in 1982 as director of communications'. Quayle was instrumental in passing legislation described by a Lilly spokesman as the most important drug measure before Congress at the time.​
Is this coincidental?

It also no secret that the CIA has meddled in the internal affairs of other countries and that it has also fomented coups. Chavez claims such meddling is going on in Venezuela, as I type, and this has been common place since WWII.

Let's look closer to home at today's press: Blair on Lord Goldsmith's advice and the Iraq war:
"The advice was clear that the war was lawful, for the reasons the attorney general then set out in a parliamentary answer. The attorney general came to cabinet. He was there. We had a discussion at cabinet about it. You can go on forever trying to prove there's some conspiracy, some plot. There wasn't. There was a judgment - a judgment that might be right, it might be wrong, but I had to take it."
Blair made the decision to take the country to war following a meeting with Bush in March 2002. The decision made in that meeting was kept secret from the British public. However, now the beans are being spilt re: Lord Goldsmith's advice, we see that his decision was not based on sound legal reasons at all but on his personal view that "it was the right thing to do", even though a majority of the British public were opposed to the war.

It seems that even when the intent to conspire can be shown, there are still some that deny the possibility. Is there a name for this particular form of denial apart from cognitive dissonance?
 
fela fan said:
But mate, that might be the very thing you'd find yourself doing. Plenty of others have had to make that choice. Plenty didn't and lost their lives as a result.
Former Foreign Office lawyer, Elizabeth Wilmshurst - whose revelations undermined the entire legal case for the UK going to war with Iraq - seems to be somewhat alive and kicking right now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4381379.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4377605.stm

So why wasn't she murdered then, fela?
 
laptop said:
... Conspiracies exist.

The entities described as "conspiracy theories" also exist. Trouble is, they have nothing to do with actual conspiracies, have a mere nodding acquaintance with evidence, have nothing to do with analysis, and do not meet any expressible criteria for being considered "theories".

Exactly! Just like your own "nodding acquaintance" with the 'Mr Blobby Goes to Dulles" video "evidence" showing 4 unidentifiable blobs passing through what looks to be a mettle detector.


It would have been better if another term had been chosen.

"Fruitloop fantasies" is good. "Paranoid disordered thoughts" is clinically accurate. "Excusing yourself from actual action to improve things through speculating about how all-powerful the powers that be might be" is politically spot-on.

Well, I think "paranoid disordered thoughts" is probably the most appropriate nomenclature in your own rather distressing case laptop, bearing in mind the quality and type of "evidence" you have furnished so far in support of your 19 blokes with box-cutters turned over a super-power conspiracy theory, don't you?


But that's not how language works (not that so-called "conspiracy theorists" are capable of analysing how language works - they have the same insane approach to their texts as fundamentalist preacher-men have to theirs). Language is quite content to offer us "troll posts" that have no literal connection with bridges in Norway and do not qualify as fence-supporting timbers. Those of us who believe in the power of evidence and reason have got used to the phrase "conspiracy theory" having a similarly nonexistent relationship to its component phonemes.

Roughly translated then, what your "component phenemes" are saying here is that you are the only one who knows what you are talking about. I must say, that sounds more than reasonable to me.


Of course, "Everyone else is wrong" is the entire point for a "conspiracy theorist". They wish to be special. (They are, in fact, "special" in the sarcastic sense.) They wish to be the only one who knows The Truth.

Well, that's certainly true in your case Laptop and I think it's jolly brave of you to just come right out and explain to us all how you see yourself, well done!


Which means, by definition, that what they make so much noise about is not the truth, because the truth is - condensing huge wodges of philosophy - a matter of shared observation.

Roughly translated then, what your "component phenemes" are saying this time round is that you are the only one who knows what you are talking about... again. I must say, that sounds more than reasonable to me.


People who uncover actual conspiracies are not "conspiracy theorists". They are, most often, called "journalists".

Nice touch ending your mea culpa on a lighthearted note, especially as the memory of how our beloved mainstream media "journalists" almost to a man obediently allowed themselves to get duped into believing the government own conspiracy of lies about WMD's is still fresh in our collective consciousness, even though this particular conspiracy was ridiculed by Hans Blix, Scott Ritter and UNMOVIC at the time.
 
Raison, just to note that the section you quoted was not proof that Chomsky is a polemicist. It is a pretty redundant debate anyway, because if you believe that Chomsky tells the truth then you are never going to accept what anyone else says about him; his work has that cultish air about it.

This thread, however, is not about Chomsky but about conspiracy theories, notably the 9/11 conspiracy.

Fridgemagnet's answer from the previous page seems to be a perfectly adequate rebuttal to Raison's arguments:

- conspiracies have been planned
- conspiracies have happened, and could have happened
- therefore everything that has been accused of being a conspiracy must have been one

Where's the link between 2 and 3? I agree that power - in both socialist and capitalist systems - tends to be concentrated, and that those with power often abuse it, necessarily behind closed doors, but why does this mean that we should believe every conspiracy theory?

If we are talking about corruption and elites, then we aren't we talking about the biggest corrupt elite of them all - Nigerian governments since 1968? Squirrelled away about USD320bn over the last 35 years, with the help of Shell, to the enormous detriment, and deaths, of tens of millions of people. Now that's a scandal, not imaginary pods on the side of two sodding planes.
 
Sorry to distract from the larger debate here but this:
freke said:
Bernie, yeah Chomsky’s media model does have its strengths. But Gramschian ideas of hegemonies and counter-hegemonies are so much more powerful, are less dependent on accepting a binary model of the idealised people versus the big bad elite

just isn't an accurate portrayal of the media model presented by Chomsky and Herman at all. They present a model that describes the operation of the media as a propaganda tool resulting form the emergent properties of the system of ownership- nothing to do with a conspiracy by a big bad elite. Their model explicitly states that it is closer to a free-market treatment of information than a conspiracy theory. Can you defend this statement?
 
freke said:
If you read it through, you’ll note that you end up saying that my position on Pilger was “quite persuasive”. Anyway, it seems you still don’t know the meaning of the word courteous.

Just because Pilger and Chomsky say what you want to hear does not in itself make it true. In fact those that tell us what we want to hear, we should be even more sceptical of because we should know that our defences are down.

It's easy to succumb to discourteousness on urban (as it is when driving a car) because no-one is face to face. I apologise for having shown it to you. I think the reason i did so is that i seem to remember you being a journalist, and i have a disdain for british journalists in general. Especially political ones.

Pilger and Chomsky don't say what i want to hear. When i first read pilger (about 10 years ago) i didn't know what i wanted to hear. I was still forming my opinions. As i am now, but to a much lesser degree. And in fact, things that i had been beginning to suspect were put into a perspective that i could grasp by the pilger book i read at that time.

One of the things i like about chomsky is his extensive sourcing. Same with pilger. And Blum. You, maybe understandably, attribute the 'what one wants to hear' phenomenon to me. But you could not be more wrong. I only believe what i personally experience. Everything else i put on hold.

By the way, i've spent a fair amount of time over acedemics (and with them) and the academic world, and i reckon the common man on the street is often more aware of what is going on in the world than they are. Academics, like any field of people, have their own genre, and accordingly their own language. They are often up their own arse, pretending to themselves they are oh so objective. Often this is bollocks, if clever bollocks.

And one more thing. If 98 people say one thing and 2 say the other, then i'll nearly always reckon the 2 are right...
 
fela fan said:
And one more thing. If 98 people say one thing and 2 say the other, then i'll nearly always reckon the 2 are right...
That suggests some kind of mental disorder to me.
 
kropotkin ... "can I defend this statement?"

Not really, as I have said many times here I find Chomsky's use of evidence highly suspect and so about five years ago stopped reading his stuff because I found I could not rely on his material to be accurate.

Talking from memory, I found that his approach - to paraphrase 'I have found the truth and everyone else refuses to recognise it', largely because of their own self interest (cf. his arguments about liberals; note fela's accusation against me on this page) - particularly useless when it comes to understanding the world.

If in fact Chomsky was far more reasonable, and did not accuse liberals of being 'just as bad as all the rest', did not misquote people in the NYT, did not infer dodgy conclusions from rather arbitrary connections, then I stand corrected. This is how I remember his writing, however.

(And fela, just because there's lots of notes means nothing - Bjorn Lomborg says tackling climate change is wrong and he uses more notes than all of Chomsky put together - does this make him right?!)

But if it rocks your boat, makes sense for you, don't let me stop you. (I promise not to rise to any more Chomsky-related threads ... really must work!!)
 
editor said:
Err, I'd say I'd be a little more than 'pissed off' if a loved one had just been murdered by the government.

:rolleyes:

Perhaps you'd meekly carry on as if nothing had happened, but that wouldn't do for me. After all, if they'd 'murdered' one member of my family, they could murder many others, so I'd make full use of the world's media to present my solid evidence of the crime.

(Assuming I had some of course, and hadn't been dredging it up from conspiraloon sites)

Yeah, well anyone'd be pissed off. The question is, what could you do about it? You were far too clear on what you'd do, without considering the context.

If i were single, no i'd not meekly carry on. I'd do what i felt to be right. If i had two young adult daughters who i was told would be killed off were i to voice my suspicions, then i'd most likely keep quite. I'd certainly not even begin to think the world's media could possibly help me against the might of the government.

Your faith in the likes of the british media seems almost tragically touching, but i'm afraid it's also most naive mate.
 
editor said:
That suggests some kind of mental disorder to me.

That doesn't surprise me since much of your debating style is designed to appeal to the masses, but not on any evidence of any kind.

[You'll recall how the man who said the world was round was roundly condemned and considered insane. He was not even two, just one.]

But, if the likes of bush and blair and many journos are sane, then yes, i have a mental disorder.

However, i believe myself to be a fully functioning sane member of society. Unlike those i've just mentioned, who are off their fucking rockers, and belong in the funny farm.
 
fela fan said:
That doesn't surprise me since much of your debating style is designed to appeal to the masses, but not on any evidence of any kind.

[You'll recall how the man who said the world was round was roundly condemned and considered insane. He was not even two, just one.]

But, if the likes of bush and blair and many journos are sane, then yes, i have a mental disorder.

However, i believe myself to be a fully functioning sane member of society. Unlike those i've just mentioned, who are off their fucking rockers, and belong in the funny farm.

It is this kind of statement, fela, which proves that it's just not possible to debate anything with you. What would be the point?
 
fela fan said:
However, i believe myself to be a fully functioning sane member of society. Unlike those i've just mentioned, who are off their fucking rockers, and belong in the funny farm.
It's not normal to assume that 98% of the public are, by default, wrong or belong "in the funny farm".
 
freke said:
Raison, just to note that the section you quoted was not proof that Chomsky is a polemicist. It is a pretty redundant debate anyway, because if you believe that Chomsky tells the truth then you are never going to accept what anyone else says about him; his work has that cultish air about it.

[This thread, however, is not about Chomsky but about conspiracy theories, notably the 9/11 conspiracy.
You raised Chomsky so you could at least have the decency to explain what your claim is based on now that everyone has come out to play! Saying that Chomsky's work has a cultish air about it doesn't cut any ice with me. Provide some persuasive arguments at least!

Fridgemagnet's answer from the previous page seems to be a perfectly adequate rebuttal to Raison's arguments:

- conspiracies have been planned
- conspiracies have happened, and could have happened
- therefore everything that has been accused of being a conspiracy must have been one
I don't think you understood my post and I urge you to re-read it and give me an answer instead of plagiarising FM.
Where's the link between 2 and 3? I agree that power - in both socialist and capitalist systems - tends to be concentrated, and that those with power often abuse it, necessarily behind closed doors, but why does this mean that we should believe every conspiracy theory?
Did I say that we should believe conspiracy theories? You are mistaken. Clearly you did not comprehend my post.
If we are talking about corruption and elites, then we aren't we talking about the biggest corrupt elite of them all - Nigerian governments since 1968? Squirrelled away about USD320bn over the last 35 years, with the help of Shell, to the enormous detriment, and deaths, of tens of millions of people. Now that's a scandal, not imaginary pods on the side of two sodding planes.
Classic. Let's change the subject now and talk about Nigerian corruption! :rolleyes:
 
Lock&Light said:
It is this kind of statement, fela, which proves that it's just not possible to debate anything with you. What would be the point?

None whatsoever mate. It's entirely up to the individual. Plenty do, plenty don't.

But let me refine what i said. Blair and bush are not actually insane, they just display acts of insanity in much of what they do and say.

You see, the problem here is a fundamental one. I operate from a different default, politically, than what does the mainstream media, and the whole charade of politics.

For me, blair is no different to an italian godfather who gives the nod for others to kill others. Were the godfather to have evidence given of his actions, he'd go down for a considerable time. Blair will never suffer that fate. But he's actually a far bigger criminal than anyone in british or italian prisons today.

Next time you see bush on the telly and hear him, you concentrate fully, and i tell you, the man is deeply insane!

Now if that means you cannot debate with me, then cease to do so mate. Your call!
 
editor said:
It's not normal to assume that 98% of the public are, by default, wrong or belong "in the funny farm".

No, and nor did i say that either. But i do believe that the likes of bush and blair do indeed belong in the funny farm, if not prison. One or t'other.

A far greater proportion of the public, however, are more right than the british press more times. They are much more in tune with things than the idiots that preen themselves writing for the papers.

My point i didn't make that clearly was that i cannot subscribe to the numbers method of deciding what is right or wrong. I feel you do that too often in debating on urban.

But it's your right to do so. And mine to point it out.
 
fela fan said:
And one more thing. If 98 people say one thing and 2 say the other, then i'll nearly always reckon the 2 are right...
Right so you think the world is flat and gravity doesn't exist and hundreds of other loony things. :rolleyes:
 
freke said:
Talking from memory, I found that his approach - to paraphrase 'I have found the truth and everyone else refuses to recognise it', largely because of their own self interest (cf. his arguments about liberals; note fela's accusation against me on this page) - particularly useless when it comes to understanding the world.
But you've yet to show that this is his approach.
 
fela fan said:
My point i didn't make that clearly was that i cannot subscribe to the numbers method of deciding what is right or wrong. I feel you do that too often in debating on urban.

But it's your right to do so. And mine to point it out.
Except that you quite clearly do subscribe to the numbers method, because you conclude that the two people are right and the ninety-eight are wrong, purely because of the proportions.

It's just a very strange "numbers method".
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Except that you quite clearly do subscribe to the numbers method, because you conclude that the two people are right and the ninety-eight are wrong, purely because of the proportions.

It's just a very strange "numbers method".

Strange coz you've changed my meaning. I don't subscribe to the majority is right. That's the numbers i'm talking about.

Just coz the majority say something, don't mean it's right.

Do you understand now?
 
redsquirrel said:
Right so you think the world is flat and gravity doesn't exist and hundreds of other loony things. :rolleyes:

When the world was flat, a man came along and said it was round. He was roundly condemned to be insane and completely wrong.

But he wasn't was he...

I don't think any loony things mate. That's my whole approach. I only subscribe to what i've personally experienced. Everything else is open to debate.
 
fela fan said:
Strange coz you've changed my meaning. I don't subscribe to the majority is right. That's the numbers i'm talking about.

Just coz the majority say something, don't mean it's right.

Do you understand now?
Actually, I think your original statement was a more accurate self-description.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Actually, I think your original statement was a more accurate self-description.

Bully for you.

But you're wrong. And in debating things with me, that is certainly not the first time.
 
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