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Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

"But Gramschian ideas of hegemonies and counter-hegemonies are so much more powerful, are less dependent on accepting a binary model of the idealised people versus the big bad elite, and rely so much less on relying on Chomsky, whose treatment of evidence is too poor to be of much use."

I realise that this whole argument could have been cleared up if I had clarified that the sentence above refers to my impressions of Chomskyite (ie Pilger, Chomsky etc) work *in general* rather than Chomsky's media model specifically. I think this is clear from the thread, and I should have cleared this up a long time ago. As such, your triumphant little claim about me making up my views brings an unnecessary and unpleasant tone to the debate.

That said, I would fall off my chair rather quickly in surprise if on reading Chomsky's propaganda model (again) I found that these ideologues had suddenly begun to respect their source material, drop the tedious and incessant moralising, and had written something relevant and interesting.
 
I hear what you're saying Freke and I'm sure you wouldn't be saying it without some good reason. Any chance of a hint about the 'misuse of sources' thing though? I don't object to doing my own digging and coming to my own conclusions, but you aren't the only person who is busy and I'd appreciate even a small hint about where to start cross-checking for myself.
 
cheers freke- although I too would be interested in examples (understanding your business- I can wait!).


edit: I'm interested in examples that show that he couldn't get to his conclusion without manipulating the evidence- not examples that have no real impact on his argument. If you know what i mean.
 
Bernie, as ever with research there's different layers, as you well know. There's the most basic one, which is to fact-check. Then there's the next layer, which is to look at the facts in a wider perspective and to see how the author presents them, the frame, the juxtaposition and the language.

For example, look at the use of facts with regard to civilian deaths in Iraq; a highly controversial subject. I know that almost every opponent to war states as fact that 100,000 civilians have died because of the invasion. Sometimes it is "more than 100,000" etc etc. As far as I know, the 'official' body count, kept by independent NGOs is substantially less than 30,000, I think around 15,000. The sole source of the 100,000 figure is a Lancet article last year, based on a relatively small sample and a relatively large extrapolation. (I could be wrong on this being the only source, please correct me if so.) The NGO figures are clearly rather low, but this is because they are relatively narrowly defined.

So, if one is looking for accuracy, a statement such as "civilian deaths in Iraq could be as high as 100,000", would be broadly fair. But if the author is using this fact as justification for a large claim, such as all US foreign policy is bad, then the evidence - in my opinion - would have to be substantiated. One cannot say that all US foreign policy is bad but to only justify this using one source, particularly one that is rather weak (in context).

One finds with ideologues of all stripes a tendency to cherry-pick facts, often controversial ones, present them as typical and/or substantiated facts, and then to draw strong conclusions based upon them. This is my issue with Chomsky, at heart.

Look at anti-Europeans in the UK - you will have arguments that can be summed up as "Europe's straight banana policies are evidence to show that Britain should pull out the EU". Firstly, the straight banana policy never happened, secondly even if it did one cannot/should not draw such a strong conclusion from such weak evidence.

I feel that I've probably left myself open to a whole range of new attacks with this, and I just don't have the time at the moment to do the subject justice, so I'll write this disclaimer instead, and apologies if I've made any mistakes or misrepresented anyone.
 
Also ...

It is always interesting to observe in what direction an author allows 'give' in his or her use of facts, as this often betrays their ideological position. Non-ideological authors you can't tell, because they have respect for their facts and try to weave a story without imposing their own views to heavily. In fact, the mark of a good author is often their ability to say something that one wouldn't expect them to say.

When I read Noreena Hertz's new book, I got that terrible feeling I knew everything she was going to say by the end of the introduction, and I was right. (That said, Naomi Klein's No Logo is a better book than I first thought, and I wish she would stick to cultural stuff instead of her rather ill-informed rants about US foreign policy.)
 
I am also interested in cross-checking the source material you claim has been manipulated by Chomsky. Please provide a clue to where to begin looking.
 
Bernie, I realise I didn't really answer your question. The most clear misuse of evidence is Chomsky's approach to quoting. He will often quote out of context (as does Naomi Klein) and completely change the meaning of what has been said to suit his own purposes.

Selection of evidence, as described above, is clearly worth looking at. (is George Kennan's 1948 Mr X article, for example, enough evidence to prove that the US approach to the Cold War was entirely self-serving for the US elites? Chomsky believes so, but was this the only document written at the time? Is Kennan typical of the US foreign policy establishment?)

Conflation of disparate elements is another Chomsky technique, listing, for example, names of various people in government and trying to associate them with something bad, and then using this as evidence that something else is wrong. A knows B so A's policy C must be bad.

This is not a real example, but the type of thing he would do would be to conclude that Bush's foreign policy is wrong because Bush knew Ken Lay. It is a kind of ad hominem attack, and is, as such, a logical fallacy. It is not enough to merely to show association to draw the conclusions. (Unless, of course, he is relying on the reader to fill in the gaps, another common technique of Chomsky and Pilger, a kind of mud-throwing exercise, but it means the author is not constructing a logical chain to support his conclusions.)
 
So we've moved onto chomsky now. This thread must have taken various recent turns, all away form the original topic.

Not a bad thing at all, and i suspect it's coz of the dearth of other good threads on this forum these days. It's a real go slow.

At least a discussion is taking place on this thread!
 
I guess I meant "non-ideologues" - trying to distinguish between those authors that merely expound a certain ideological position from those that attempt to transcend their own (inevitable) ideological constraints.

Well that's my view. What does anyone else think? How do other people read political stuff? What kind of logical flaws do others see in political writing?

Sounds like there's more scepticism regarding Chomsky (fela fan excluded, natch!) than I expected. Why do people think his ideas have such a hold on young people? Does anyone agree that the Left might be being held back by the general acceptance (he is very mainstream, if a poll of my friends is anything to go by, and book sales) of the old prof's views?
 
Raisin D'etre said:
Conspiracies do exist - the tobacco industry is a classic example of a conspiracy. For over 50 years the tobacco industry lied about the danger of tobacco and cast doubt on the link between smoking and cancer. A more recent case is the Enron scandal. Is your problem with "conspiracies" or "conspiracy theories"? This might be true but people who are drawn to conspiracy theories see some nefarious deed enacted, observe how it is covered up or ignored and then seek to redress the situation by uncovering the facts for themselves. In the case of 911 there are many unanswered questions, Bush was not interested in investigating 911, yet warned Americans to not give into "outrageous conspiracy theories". If it were not for the "Jersey Girls" we would never have had the half-baked 911 investigation, which, millions of dollars later, discovered precisely nothing. If there was nothing to hide - why all the secrecy? The Bush administration could end all conspiracy theories by putting into the public domain every single document related to 911. Why the evasions?

Freke says people want to believe the worst of Bush. This is hilarious! Bush told countless lies about Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and Saddam, as a result 100,000s of people have died in Afghanistan and Iraq and many more lives are being threatened. Disliking GWB and seeing him in a bad light is completely in keeping with what we know of the man and has nothing to do with some secret irrational hatred.

How can we ignore that the war in Iraq was planned well in advance of 911 by a select group of men who ended up assuming positions of power in the first Bush administration? Is this not a conspiracy, a group of men getting together to plan a war in secret? What could be more criminal than that? The evidence is staring us in the face and you have to admire these people for their chutzpah. It certainly hasn't damaged their careers in any way.

Also, conspiracy theorists very often uncover valid information that helps make sense of conspiracies. Perhaps opting to explain events using Institutional Theory is more useful than apportioning blame to a handful of people, for if those individuals were not in the positions that enabled them to conspire to do something illegal, other actors would take their place and would in all likelihood behave in the same way.

The weakness of conspiracy theories is that they encourage us to pin the blame on specific individuals and the status quo is maintained. Yet, the underlying cause - capitalism - that gives rise to greed, corruption, secrecy, abuses of power etc, remains unchecked.


This is a great post Raison up to the last paragrapgh and then you make a massive jump in reasoning and put words into the mouths of us so called conspiracy theorists (a term of abuse coined by our opponents not me).

First up, yes, conspiracies exist and many have been proven. Some conspiracy theories are true and some are not. Many more are true than is widely accepted.

If they were more widely accepted/known, campaigns such as the one to expose the lies and cover-ups of 9/11 wouldn't be so easily dismissed by so many.

Fact: the media is controlled by a hand full of powerful corporations in the hands of a hand full of powerful elite and they do present a very narrow and sanitised worldview. The media self censorship and popular amnesia largely accounts for the lack of awareness of past conspiracies.

FACT Corruption IS rampant. So much so that most siginificant institutions (and I'm struggling to think of one which isn't) are institutionallly corrupt. This applies to legal institutions, political institutions, business institutions and media institutions

So given all of the above I'll ask you the same Q I asked bernie. What is incompatable between institutional theory or systems theory (or whatever 'academic' approaches favoured by you and Bernie) and a belief in a 'conspiracy theories'. Why can someone who accepts many (BUT NOT ALL) CT's are true, not also see the world's problems as systemic.

By my reckoning the fact that you accept some conspiracies are true makes you every bit a CTer as me. The weakness you associate with CT's (here "The weakness of conspiracy theories is that they encourage us to pin the blame on specific individuals and the status quo is maintained." ) is untrue in my experience. I know many people who disbelieve the official 9/11 fairytale, but they (1) also see the systemic failures that allows 'them' to get away with it and (2) none of them support the status quo

Best Ian
 
Bernie likes to turn his academic nose up when he gets within sniffing distance of 9/11. On the other hand, he pulls out all the stops when it comes to peddling that other mother of a conspiracy theory - "Peak Oil".
 
bigfish said:
Bernie likes to turn his academic nose up when he gets within sniffing distance of 9/11. On the other hand, he pulls out all the stops when it comes to peddling that other mother of a conspiracy theory - "Peak Oil".
Any chance of you finally answering my questions please?
 
sparticus said:
By my reckoning the fact that you accept some conspiracies are true makes you every bit a CTer as me. The weakness you associate with CT's (here "The weakness of conspiracy theories is that they encourage us to pin the blame on specific individuals and the status quo is maintained." ) is untrue in my experience. I know many people who disbelieve the official 9/11 fairytale, but they (1) also see the systemic failures that allows 'them' to get away with it and (2) none of them support the status quo
Thanks. What I was trying to get at here is that often the goal is to remove a handful of individuals (the conspiracists) as if that solves the problem. For example, in the case of the Abu Ghraib torture scandal we find that the Bush administration has chosen to blame it on a "few bad apples" rather than addressing the underlying causes. The power structure, secrecy, racism, indoctrination etc within the military all gave rise to these abuses. As the abuses still continue, criminalising a few soldiers has not altered anything and the status quo remains unchallenged. Those responsible for criminal acts should be punished but we must also call for a serious investigation into how particular institutions encourage such behaviour and criminality.

Edited to add: Even if all these things are carried out, capitalism is never challenged.
 
freke said:
Does anyone agree that the Left might be being held back by the general acceptance (he is very mainstream, if a poll of my friends is anything to go by, and book sales) of the old prof's views?

It might.

Chomsky is not a CTer and his analysis does not support CTs - because (briefly, I have work do do) it is an analysis. In other words it does merit the description "theory" since it takes into account all the available evidence and, crucually, the mechanism by which the observed data are produced. In yet other words, it's dealing with the world, not textual shenanigans.

But his work may have one of the ill effects that CTs have: to disempower by giving the appearance of an all-powerful ogliarchy - and not indicating anywhere to put the lever, so to speak.

Chomsky would respond - and I think has responded - that finding the place to put the lever is other people's task and that Manufacturing Consent (etc) is strictly an academic study into how the media work.
 
freke said:
Why do people think his ideas have such a hold on ... people?
Possibly to do with an inability on behalf of those offering criticism of his work to provide any specifics or examples to support their argument, other than what appear to be vauge, specious and ideologically motivated, baseless smears. ;)
 
Speaking from experience, his ideas are peculiarly attractive - they have the appeal of an all-encompassing narrative and a clearly identifiable 'bad guy'. laptop, again I find myself agreeing with you, and thank you for your clarity (particularly compared to my very hungover waffling this morning!).

BB - haha! V funny!

OK, this thread has just about convinced me to reread some Chomsky and write a piece about his ideas, his use of source material and his general popularity. I'll see if I can sell it to a mag. Gimme a couple of weeks tho ...
 
freke said:
It is always interesting to observe in what direction an author allows 'give' in his or her use of facts, as this often betrays their ideological position. Non-ideological authors you can't tell, because they have respect for their facts and try to weave a story without imposing their own views to heavily. In fact, the mark of a good author is often their ability to say something that one wouldn't expect them to say.
It will be interesting to read your piece in the light of the above...
 
freke said:
Speaking from experience, his ideas are peculiarly attractive - they have the appeal of an all-encompassing narrative and a clearly identifiable 'bad guy'. laptop, again I find myself agreeing with you, and thank you for your clarity (particularly compared to my very hungover waffling this morning!).

BB - haha! V funny!

OK, this thread has just about convinced me to reread some Chomsky and write a piece about his ideas, his use of source material and his general popularity. I'll see if I can sell it to a mag. Gimme a couple of weeks tho ...
I would be very interested in reading that freke- as I said, almost everything I have found that attempts a critique has been very poor.

I would suggest Deterring Democracy would be a good book to go for- it deals with events that the source material is readily available for. Manufacturing Consent is apparently more Herman's work anyway.
 
I think there is an obvious point of similarity between what Chomsky says and what conspiracy theorists have to say. That "official reality" as presented in the media and other mainstream discourse, contains serviceable falsehoods that are being sustained by PR, propaganda and deception of various kinds.

To me the big difference is how that conclusion is reached. The same also applies to the probable 100,000 dead Iraqis and to other analyses which call into question some aspect of "official reality" (the example I'm particularly interested in personally is that whole set of science-based challenges to an "official reality" dogma that 'endless growth and free markets are always good' represented by climate change, soil erosion, deforestation, peak oil etc.)

I think this is especially important, because the Lancet guys, Chomsky and Herman and the Green movement have reasonably plausible analyses by which they get to their conclusions and because both are subjects of attack by PR machines which are utterly lacking in respect for facts and logic.

One of the tactics often employed by such PR machines is to attack those who question "official reality" by using those points of resemblance which do exist with conspiracy theories, to attack those analyses as though they *were* conspiracy theories. So while it's important to see similarities I think it's very important to be aware of the differences and to insist on a clear distinction.

For me, the crucial distinction is in how a case is made using facts and logic.

It's perfectly reasonable to say "911 is highly suspicious in the following ways: the obvious congruence with the PNAC agenda, the repeated warnings from various intelligence services, the historically very close relationship between US, Saudi and Pakistani intelligence agencies and the jihadis and a host of subsequent incidents like Osama Bin Ladin's party political broadcast a couple of months ago"

Suspicious yes, but not conclusive. To be conclusive I think one has to have a chain of evidence and there is just no way private citizens are going to get near the relevant sources, even if Bush et al *were* complicit. At least until they fall from power and some vengeful Democrats are in a real position to investigate properly, but probably not even then. Look at how Iran-Contra wimped out.

So while I may privately be deeply suspicious about 911 and similar matters, I don't really see much point in going on about it because common sense tells me that I have no way to get to the bottom of it without the right sources.

I think speculation can be interesting, and possibly even useful if one is say writing a fictionalised account or something like that, but getting that mixed up with challenges to 'official reality' that are both important and do-able with facts and logic is a big mistake in my view, which is why I try to stick to the latter.

There is also an urban specific issue, which is that the editor has made it clear that he doesn't want conspiratorial speculation to take root here. To my mind this is a bit like being a guest in the house of a non-smoker. If you want to hang out there, you respect the house rules and smoke elsewhere.
 
I have been looking through lots of commentary on Chomsky this evening, and it is all coming flooding back … I’m not sure if there’s a piece in it, as so much has already been said and there are many other things to write about that have not.

One of the first things that struck me was the realisation that Chomsky is an American, and a left-wing one at that, and so his reality is that much closer to the picture he describes in his books. When he talks of business taking over the media and shutting out debate, one only has to look at the concentration of media interests, political coverage and political behaviour over the last four years to see why he might say what he says.

The continuing conservatism of the US throughout the twentieth century, with intermittent peaks, such as the one we are seeing now, probably helps shed light on his vibrant use of language and metaphor, and maybe why his descriptions of US behaviour are often so violently expressed (for example, the US attacks on Afghanistan would, he claimed, unleash a “silent genocide” on its population).

While I not have gone into detailed research into his economic beliefs (though he has written plenty), it is clear that his general perspective is Marxist, in that there is a degree of economism in his writing, in that most (maybe all) events and political behaviour stems from economic interests.

An area I know his views relatively well are with regard to the start of the cold war, which he claims that the US became involved primarily for its own economic reasons, frequently citing NSC68 and George Kennan.

To make this claim he must argue that US policymakers at the time did not really believe the USSR posed a threat to the US. I believe that he, like others on the Left today, do not fully comprehend the political perspective of the Right, which will often start from the perspective “where are the threats, it is the role of the state to tackle them”; instead, the Left often assumes right-wing fearful Hobbesianism to be a cynical ploy (cf. the war in Iraq). Though I have little sympathy for Hobbesian perspectives, I do believe that the majority of those that hold such views do so for genuine reasons drawn from an alternative political viewpoint.

Not wishing to digress too much, a parallel argument from the opposite perspective is the Right’s frequent claim that left-wing politicians support the welfare state and trade unionism merely out of self-interest, because that is where their support lies, and then wrap such claims in idealist language.

Chomsky’s disregard, often downright contempt, for those that hold alternative views is a constant theme in his writing, and it is this that probably alienates me most from his work. He celebrates his alienation from the mainstream press, and constantly pours scorn on those that work within it, and frequently implicitly and explicitly claims that these people that hold different views from him do so only because of their own self-interest and/or because of indoctrination.

For example, in a recent article on Israel in an Egyptian newspaper, (http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041118.htm) he opens his piece:

“The fundamental principle is that ‘we are good’ … and what ‘we’ do is dedicated to the highest principles, though there may be errors in practice.”

“The principles are simple, and easy to remember for those seeking a career in respectable circles.”

I would argue that the Italian Marxist Gramschi is more persuasive when he wrote of hegemonies and how they are constructed. A hegemonic order is backed by both coercion and consent. Chomsky’s model, on the other hand, appears based upon coercion and economic self-interest and/or stupidity. The difference is important: Chomsky’s perspective appears to give no room for others to genuinely hold political views at variance to his own.

The NATO bombing of Kosovo, for instance, was – to Chomsky – the next step in US domination of Europe. Political calculations of European leaders responding to emotive television pictures and a political climate supportive of humanitarian intervention, particularly in the UK, are not just dismissed but ignored.

Of course, Chomsky would counter that his model is based on coercion and consent, but that the consent is manufactured.

He argues: “The elite domination of the media and marginalization of dissidents that results from the operation of these filters occurs so naturally that media news people, frequently operating with complete integrity and goodwill, are able to convince themselves that they choose and interpret the news "objectively" and on the basis of professional news values.” (MC, p1)

However, “the media serve the ends of a dominant elite” and that “in a world of concentrated wealth and major conflicts of class interest, to fulfill this role requires systematic propaganda”, which the media serves.

As a result, there is no escape: any political perspective that differs from his own can be dismissed by accusing those that hold such differing views either of ignorance or self interest (interestingly, at least two posters on this board have directly accused me of the latter for criticising Chomsky and Pilger). This position only seems to be a form of ad hominem attack writ large, one that if it is not called as such, is impossible to defend oneself against, but is in fact a logical fallacy.

But, as I said at the top of this, Chomsky does work in the US amongst academics where such processes are more commonplace. US academia is often bought and American political discourses are frequently repressed/dominated by some of the powerful filters he describes in Manufacturing Consent. However, to my mind he extrapolates too far. In a curious parallel with some of his other arguments, he mistakenly universalises the American experience and imposes it on places and people where such models are often rather irrelevant.

His description of the events in Kosovo, for instance, in a book on the subject, does not mention any history of the region and assumes that the attacks of 1999 were primarily about the US and its antipathy towards Milosevic (a factor, but it’s an enormous leap to claim that it was basically the only factor). There is barely a mention of the earlier Bosnian wars, almost no detail of the history of the conflicts, and little mention of Blair’s role in the matter. Instead, the narrative focuses squarely upon the US and its interests. So maybe Chomsky is just another American imperialist …
 
Surely though, the US model is becoming increasingly relevant here as our media and our educational system (and for that matter all of our other public services and many elements of our political system) come to resemble those of the US more and more closely?

It might not be a perfect fit, but I think it would be very hard to convincingly argue that the US experience wasn't relevant here insofar as all of our politicians since Thatcher have been taking us inexorably in that direction.
 
In a way the point above also relates to your objection that he treats 'elites' as a homogenous mass oppressing the people. Part of the problem with having markets running everything is precisely that they homogenise things into a single Disneyfied "official reality" which only presents minor differences for debate while excluding all of the alternatives from public visibility.
 
To be clear, I think his model is over-simplified and a form of ad hominem attack writ large, but that in America I can see why he believes these things. Not that these things are true in America, just closer to the truth. And there are always competing elites, with different sets of interests, not one homogenous elite, as Chomsky proposes.
 
Are you sure he's claiming a homogenous elite? I didn't think so. I thought he was claiming there was a homogenous *effect* resulting from some sort of limited consensus between elites about what constitutes acceptable reality.

I'm pretty sure he says that strong disagreement can occur among competing elites about some subject, and in those cases you'll see some more debate in the press.

So for example, European elites (mostly) and the US elites differed regarding invading Iraq, and we saw debate about it. They mostly don't differ about capitalism though, so we don't see debate about whether that's a good idea.
 
Read the conclusion of the book Freke - he does outline the limitations of the model there. You quote only from page one.
No simple model will suffice, however, to account for every detail of such a complex matter as the working of the national mass media. A propaganda model, we believe, captures essential features of the process, but it leaves many nuances and secondary effects unanalyzed There are other factors that should be recognized. Some of these conflict with the "societal purpose" of the media as described by the propaganda model; some support it. In the former category, the humanity and professional integrity of journalists often leads them in directions that are unacceptable in the ideological institutions, and one should not underestimate the psychological burden of suppressing obvious truths and maintaining the required doctrines of benevolence (possibly gone awry), inexplicable error, good intentions, injured innocence, and so on, in the face of overwhelming evidence incompatible with these patriotic premises. The resulting tensions sometimes find limited expression, but more often they are suppressed either consciously or unconsciously, with the help of belief systems that permit the pursuit of narrow interest, whatever the facts.
In the category of supportive factors, we find, first of all, elemental patriotism, the overwhelming wish to think well of ourselves, our institutions, and our leaders. We see ourselves as basically good and decent in personal life, so it must be that our institutions function in accordance with the same benevolent intent, an argument that is often persuasive even though it is a transparent non sequitur. The patriotic premise is reinforced by the belief that "we the people" rule, a central principle of the system of indoctrination from early childhood, but also one with little merit, as an analysis of the social and political system will quickly reveal. There are also real advantages in conformity beyond the rewards and privilege that it yields. If one chooses to denounce Qaddafi, or the Sandinistas, or the PLO, or the Soviet Union, no credible evidence is required. The same is true if one repeats conventional doctrines about our own society and its behavior-say, that the U.S. government is dedicated to our traditional noble commitment to democracy and human rights. But a critical analysis of American institutions, the way they function domestically and their international operations, must meet far higher standards; in fact, standards are often imposed that can barely be met in the natural sciences. One has to work hard, to produce evidence that is credible, to construct serious arguments, to present extensive documentation-all tasks that are superfluous as long as one remains within the presuppositional framework of the doctrinal consensus. It is small wonder that few are willing to undertake the effort, quite apart from the rewards that accrue to conformity and the costs of honest dissidence.
 
freke said:
Chomsky’s disregard, often downright contempt, for those that hold alternative views is a constant theme in his writing, and it is this that probably alienates me most from his work. He celebrates his alienation from the mainstream press, and constantly pours scorn on those that work within it, and frequently implicitly and explicitly claims that these people that hold different views from him do so only because of their own self-interest and/or because of indoctrination.

Aha, now perhaps we're getting closer to your problem with chomsky. Thus far you told us all it was due to his sources and how he changed them to fit his agenda.

Now we find out the underlying causes. You're in mainstream press, he 'pours scorn' on you.

As for anything 'implicit' he does, that is not what he does is it? It's your take on what he's saying as processed by your personal filter. It's about you, not the writer.

Can you show us any of this 'downright contempt' he has for others? Strong subjective emotional words those, so where's the stuff to back you up? Since it's 'constant' you shouldn't have any problems providing us with examples of his contempt.

Far as i'm concerned, he's one of the greatest voices of the 20th century, and whatever little anyone can find wrong with him, compared to the legions of snivelling self-censoring mainstream jounos who help perpetuate the abuses by our leaders, he's an icon.

Nitpicking chomsky is like finding all the finest attributes of george bush...
 
Raisin, thanks for that, it's even clearer from that quote that Chomsky is only talking about America - I mean he is American.

Intellectually, and logically, I just find him "maddeningly simple", as another writer put it, frequently distilling historical and political processes into a simple diatribe against US policymakers and the media.

In the link I included above, he returns to one of his old favourites, and said that US policy towards the Middle East is that it simply wants "stability". This might be good enough for the likes of Fela, who likes his politics to be based on concepts that don't have to make him think too hard, but it's not good enough when one wants to investigate further.

Read Fred Halliday's new book on the Middle East if you want to know why Chomsky's claim that US foreign policy towards the region has simply been "stability" - a remark he has made for at least 20 years, if not 35 - is just, well, simple to the point of being wrong.

Fela, thanks for not reading a word I said, making an ad hominem attack and then sticking your tongue further up the Great One's arse. I expect nothing less of you.

In terms of misquoting, I suspect there is an enormous one in that link, but as I have a 12-hour a day job I just don't have the time to check it through.

"The goals of the Israeli doves were explained in 1998 in an academic study by Shlomo ben-Ami, soon to become Barak's chief negotiator at Camp David: the 'Oslo peace process' was to lead to a 'permanent neocolonial dependency'"

Now I know a little bit about ben-Ami, and I'm pretty sure that Chomsky has changed the meaning here. ben-Ami has never said anything like that elsewhere and has always been a strong two-state supporter. I think ben-Ami did write those words, but not in the context that Chomsky uses them. I can't prove this, but I just don't trust the guy.

Look at what he did to Huntington a while back:

This is a quote from Huntington's letter:

"Mr. Chomsky writes as follows:

Writing in Foreign Affairs, he [Huntington] explains that the Viet Cong is "a powerful force which cannot be dislodged from its constituency so long as the constituency continues to exist." The conclusion is obvious, and he does not shrink from it. We can ensure that the constituency ceases to exist by "direct application of mechanical and conventional power…on such a massive scale as to produce a massive migration from countryside to city…."
It would be difficult to conceive of a more blatantly dishonest instance of picking words out of context so as to give them a meaning directly opposite to that which the author stated. For the benefit of your readers, here is the "obvious conclusion" which I drew from my statement about the Viet Cong:

... the Viet Cong will remain a powerful force which cannot be dislodged from its constituency so long as the constituency continues to exist. Peace in the immediate future must hence be based on accommodation.

By omitting my next sentence—"Peace in the immediate future must hence be based on accommodation"—and linking my statement about the Viet Cong to two other phrases which appear earlier in the article, Mr. Chomsky completely reversed my argument."

And Chomsky had the cheek to defend himself!

***

"So for example, European elites (mostly) and the US elites differed regarding invading Iraq, and we saw debate about it. They mostly don't differ about capitalism though, so we don't see debate about whether that's a good idea."

Is it a prerequisite of 'properly' competing elites that they debate capitalism? And anyway, given recent history it is hardly surprising that the hegemony at the moment is strongly market-led; meanwhile, alternative sets of ideas and movements that might challenge the dominant hegemony are generally indistinct, utopian and/or dystopian, so no effective counter-hegemonic movement has formed, and so there are few in the elite willing to challenge the neoliberal consensus.
 
freke said:
In the link I included above, he returns to one of his old favourites, and said that US policy towards the Middle East is that it simply wants "stability".
Going off-topic, it is is simply wrong to reduce Chomsky's arguments to "stability." In "Deterring Democracy" (which I quoted elsewhere) Chomsky writes that Israel is a strategic asset and mercenary state, and how this relationship prevented a "broad international consensus on a political settlement of the Arab-Israel conflict for many years, also how Israel's sale of US arms to Iran in the 1980s (long before there were any hostages), was carried out in coordination with the US government to encourage a military coup, which would restore the Israel-Iran-Saudi Arabia alliance on which US policy has been based under the Nixon Doctrine."
 
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