Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

[kropotkin]

Rentonite- i asked you if you have any evience that Al Quaida exists- as an international organisation with a command structure etc. You must be aware that there is alot of evidence that it does not- that is not to say that "Islamic terrorism" does not exist, just that a coordinated coherent organisation is not behind it.

Your response hasn't addressed that point whatsoever.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the evidence, or perhaps you have none that suggests they do exist?

 

[invisibleplanet]

I think most academics have come to the conclusion that al-Qaida doesn't exist, or as I would put it, it is an ideology (not an organisation). As Burke puts it, there is the 'hardcore' but that has been dismantled or at least been scattered by the war in Afghanistan - then there are all those inspired by 11/9 and they form the 'freelancers' which may get funding from the 'hardcore' but most likely do it off their own back.

I think Burke puts it excellently when he says..."you are a member of al-Qaida if you say you are"





ps. the CIA never funded al-Qaida or bin Laden - bin Laden was never a member of the Mujahadeen...

I thought that 'Al Qaeda' (arabic for 'The Base') was/is 'CIA speak' for what was once their 'covert' Middle Eastern Operations which led up to the PNAC Ops in Iraq and beyond.

Bin Laden was a former CIA 'client' and a US funded 'agitator'. He used the religious fervour of Islamic people in his training camps in Afghanistan to fight the US funded resistance to the Russians there for decades and he also carried out operations in Africa. These operations were carried out in countries with Oil as common denominator, either as a producer or strategic pipeline carrier.

Bin Laden used the Koran to try to convince people through those quotes that what 'al-Qaeda' was doing and what they were being asked to do was something that a 'good Muslim' would do in the same way that Hitler used Bosnian Muslims at the end of WWII.

All this was done with financial assistance and liaison from the United States Central Intelligence Agency. You might be aware from the recent Stateside news that the CIA are currently withholding documents which name and prove that they helped to escape/relocate and employ hundreds of high-ranking Nazi's from Hitler's regime, and covered their true identities, the CIA have helped & worked covertly with other intelligence agencies (such as Mossad) to create the 'reason' for America to occupy the Middle East today.
You might also be aware that the CIA's Middle Eastern Division HQ was located in the WTC.

 

[Rentonite]

Well, Besides all the documents that they have captured
all the video tape they have
all the people they have

the fact that they have continued to functioned even after being grossely reduced in size by combat and looseing their ability to operate openly in Afganistan, or any where else,
I have met and talked to people that have seen them and killed them.
To deny Alquedia exists is like saying the moon is just an optical illusion.
they exisist
there is no question
You know that too,
If you can convince some mush headed neophyte that they do not exsist you will have to be lucky.

sorry to pierce your bubble

 

[nino_savatte]

Yes I do

The reason I said what I did is that those that wish to deny 911 happend or that it was all a Bush conspiricy cannot accept the truth.
they HAVE to remove every component of the justification for the war so they will feel better attacking my country.

It is the same as neonazis denying the holocost.

The truth is Alquedia thought up and pulled off a remarkable attack on my country.
this is after a series of attacks leading up to 911.
then as the war has continued they have attacked our allies and have had some success in scareing away the mild hearted ones

The western world has mostly forgotten how brutal Real War is
The United States has not, nor has some European countrys.

some have.

The old saying; those that forget history are doomed to repeat it is once again comeing true.
It is Incredible to me so many believe that if we stop fighting Alquedia
they will just "go away"

They started this war
WE will end it

There is more than just Alquedia the whole anti American movement
has whipped up so much "thought up" hatred
I think it is echos of the anguish of the fall of communism (in europe) and now since there no longer is a truly evil communists empire to hate those people are useing hatred of America to bond together
it sounds silly but it seems to make sense.

So many here wish to believe 100,000 dead Iraqis.
I just cant buy that number
But to tell you the truth
the United States is not going to let "them" win because too many of the enemys people got killed. so, in the end, the number of deaths are irrelivant.

We will prevail in securing our country.

We get hit big again,
then it is possible (Probable) that the military services of the United States of America will un leash weapons with power the likes of which mankind has never whitnessed.

We will Prevail in secureing our country.

silly little alquedia has pulled off an incredible feat of arms
that is their nature.
they will not stop
and neither will the United States
There is no Question about that, not for the forseeable future.

sorry thats such a hard lump of truth for so many of you.

Braindeath speaks again!

 

[nino_savatte]

Well, Besides all the documents that they have captured
all the video tape they have
all the people they have

the fact that they have continued to functioned even after being grossely reduced in size by combat and looseing their ability to operate openly in Afganistan, or any where else,
I have met and talked to people that have seen them and killed them.
To deny Alquedia exists is like saying the moon is just an optical illusion.
they exisist
there is no question
You know that too,
If you can convince some mush headed neophyte that they do not exsist you will have to be lucky.

sorry to pierce your bubble

What documents? What are you talking about? Care to offer some proof?

 

[butchersapron]

Can't someone just ban this trash? Thread after thread.

 

[kropotkin]

Sorry, Rentonite, you are just repeating yourself without presenting an argument.

Perhaps I have expected too much here. Re- read what others on this thread have written- no one denied that there are Islamist terrorists, just that the organisation that we are told they all belong to doesn't exist.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

I thought that 'Al Qaeda' (arabic for 'The Base') was/is 'CIA speak' for what was once their 'covert' Middle Eastern Operations which led up to the PNAC Ops in Iraq and beyond.

Bin Laden was a former CIA 'client' and a US funded 'agitator'. He used the religious fervour of Islamic people in his training camps in Afghanistan to fight the US funded resistance to the Russians there for decades and he also carried out operations in Africa. These operations were carried out in countries with Oil as common denominator, either as a producer or strategic pipeline carrier.

A view that Zbig Brezinski would support

Brezinski : Regret what? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [intigrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists? Brezinski : What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

Brezinski : Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.​

Hear him rouse the Mujahideen by telling them that "Your cause is right and God is on your side ". Sorry to burst your bubble Rentonite.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Can't someone just ban this trash? Thread after thread.

Seconded.

 

[kropotkin]

Thirded. Just an illiterate moron.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Well, Besides all the documents that they have captured
all the video tape they have
all the people they have

So the US Forces picked up muslim fighters in a muslim country that had been invaded and held them far from International eyes without trial, without recourse to lawyer, and outside of all known Prisoner of War conventions, extracted false confessions under torturous duress. Still, all this doesn't prove the existence of Al Qaeda however, such actions certainly contribute and assure future hatred for the USA and it's foreign policies though.

the fact that they have continued to functioned even after being grossely reduced in size by combat and looseing their ability to operate openly in Afganistan, or any where else,

The fact that 'al Qaeda' or 'militant islamic fighters were trained using CIA money and a Saudi Arabian CIA client and have moved the fight from being against the Soviets to being against the USA...the fact that the USA as an invading force met with resistance from many groups of fighters in the Afghanistan region - a region which has known nothing but struggle and fighting against Western Occupiers for 30+ years...

I have met and talked to people that have seen them and killed them.

Killed a fighter who was a Muslim, you mean ?

To deny Alquedia exists is like saying the moon is just an optical illusion.

No, that's a false analogy, Rentonite.

they exisist

Yes, we know 'they exist'. Who created them ?

there is no question

There are plenty of unanswered questions.

You know that too,

We know Al Qaeda were created with CIA funding.

If you can convince some mush headed neophyte that they do not exsist you will have to be lucky.

Talking about yourself @mush-headed neophyte ??

sorry to pierce your bubble

There is no bubble to pierce. That sorry idiom exists only in your imagination.

 

[invisibleplanet]

What documents? What are you talking about? Care to offer some proof?

Perhaps he's talking about the copies of the CIA documents which were held by 'Al Qaeda' ?
Of course, the documents which were filed in the CIA ME Division at the WTC were destroyed when the WTC collapsed.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

So the fact that AQ killed 3000 people wasnt the reason behind opeartion Afghan freedom?

The proposed Unocal pipeline was supported by the Clinton administration, but Unocal abandoned the pipeline idea in 1998. The new Afghani government has signed a protocol to build a pipeline, but it is an entirely different pipeline, in a location hundreds of miles distant from the Unocal proposal.
Construction has not begun on the new pipeline. A popular liberal/democract myth is that “Enron stood to benefit” from the pipeline, Enron has never had any participation in either pipeline.

Consider your urban myths to have been destroyed

More...

The best security for the oil pipelines was an occupation of Afghanistan. If you map the existing and proposed pipeline through Afghanistan and then map the American bases in afghanistan, there's a surprising connection - the bases are located along the pipelines; is that a coincidence?

So, while the invasion of Afghanistan might have been advertised to the "great unwashed" as retaliation for the attacks on 911, the underlying strategy was to secure the region for American interests. See map

 

[Yossarian]

Can't someone just ban this trash? Thread after thread.

Fourthed - it's like a pbcreature with diarrhea of the keyboard.

 

[CyberRose]

I thought that 'Al Qaeda' (arabic for 'The Base') was/is 'CIA speak' for what was once their 'covert' Middle Eastern Operations which led up to the PNAC Ops in Iraq and beyond.

Bin Laden was a former CIA 'client' and a US funded 'agitator'. He used the religious fervour of Islamic people in his training camps in Afghanistan to fight the US funded resistance to the Russians there for decades and he also carried out operations in Africa. These operations were carried out in countries with Oil as common denominator, either as a producer or strategic pipeline carrier.

Bin Laden used the Koran to try to convince people through those quotes that what 'al-Qaeda' was doing and what they were being asked to do was something that a 'good Muslim' would do in the same way that Hitler used Bosnian Muslims at the end of WWII.

All this was done with financial assistance and liaison from the United States Central Intelligence Agency. You might be aware from the recent Stateside news that the CIA are currently withholding documents which name and prove that they helped to escape/relocate and employ hundreds of high-ranking Nazi's from Hitler's regime, and covered their true identities, the CIA have helped & worked covertly with other intelligence agencies (such as Mossad) to create the 'reason' for America to occupy the Middle East today.
You might also be aware that the CIA's Middle Eastern Division HQ was located in the WTC.

You have to differentiate between the Arab Afghans and the Mujahadeen, bin Laden was a member of the Arab Afghans, he was never a member of the Mujahadeen. The CIA never funded the Arab Afghans, they funded the Mujahadeen (indirectly through Pakistani intelligence), the Arab Afghans (bin Laden and what would come to be known as al-Qaida) were funded by Saudi Arabia, not the CIA.

The term/word al-Qaida came by accident when bin Laden refers to the 'hardcore' of his little operation as the base (perfectly natural thing to say!) and obviously in Arabic that is 'al-Qaida' so the Americans decided that that is what they must be called! Bin Laden never chose that name (or any name IIRC) but obviously we cant have a terrorist organisation with no name can we?!

 

[Raisin D'etre]

You have to differentiate between the Arab Afghans and the Mujahadeen, bin Laden was a member of the Arab Afghans, he was never a member of the Mujahadeen.

Any sources Cyber?

 

[nino_savatte]

What's an "Arab Afghan" Cyber?

 

[Raisin D'etre]

I think this is Faux News term for shady group completely unrelated to US operations in Afghanistan.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Yes I do

The reason I said what I did is that those that wish to deny 911 happend or that it was all a Bush conspiricy cannot accept the truth.

No one denies that the Manhatten Massacre happened.

they HAVE to remove every component of the justification for the war so they will feel better attacking my country.

No. Your country had to find justification for the next stage of their operations in the Middle East. These operations could not be hidden any longer, the groundwork had been prepared thoroughly, and so a legitimate reason for the commencement of the entry into Afghanistan to destroy what was left of the CIA Training Camps could occur.

It is the same as neonazis denying the holocost.

Firstly, you use a false analogy (these are popular with you). Secondly, you use the word 'neonazi' to tar those who doubt the reasons for US involvement in the ME with an extremist brush. Well I have news for you. Those who doubt are teachers and engineers, programmers and housewives, mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, students and clerics and rabbis, shopkeepers, cleaners, care-workers, all types of people from a variety of political persuasions, so you false neonazi analogy works only for you.

The truth is Alquedia thought up and pulled off a remarkable attack on my country. this is after a series of attacks leading up to 911.

The truth is that the CIA created 'Al Qaeda', funded it, provided arms for it, liaised frequently with Bin Laden, and would have known without a shadow of a doubt about the series of planned attacks from Bin Laden's organisation (as it used to be called) in the lead-up to 911.

then as the war has continued they have attacked our allies and have had some success in scareing away the mild hearted ones

Then, as the war continued, true allies such as Mossad were discovered to have been creating fake Al Qaeda cells in both Iraq and Palestine. One wonders in how many other Islamic countries that this fake cell creation by covert-operators has occurred.

The western world has mostly forgotten how brutal Real War is

This is clearly BOLLOCKS. Europe are still paying their dues for armaments and reparations from WWII. UK included.

The United States has not, nor has some European countrys.

See above. Besides. USA arms most of the war zones in the world, so it would be hard for it to forget about 'brutal real war'. Same goes for Israel, for whom arms sales are it's main money spinner. (and Europe too, sorry to say).

some have.

Please name some countries that have forgotten how brutal 'real war' is.

The old saying; those that forget history are doomed to repeat it is once again comeing true.

Get a mirror!

It is Incredible to me so many believe that if we stop fighting Alquedia
they will just "go away"

USA created this monster.

They started this war
WE will end it

YOU started this war, WE (the people) will end it. Don't be so fucking cocksure of how it will turn out. You could be fighting for the next 50 years if you're not careful.

There is more than just Alquedia the whole anti American movement
has whipped up so much "thought up" hatred
I think it is echos of the anguish of the fall of communism (in europe) and now since there no longer is a truly evil communists empire to hate those people are useing hatred of America to bond together
it sounds silly but it seems to make sense.

HA HA HA HA HA. It never stopped being about 'truly evil communists' for USA. It's Zionism vs. Bolshevism, and has been since the end of the 19th Century (When 'End Times' resurfaced to grip the Non-conformist Christian Ministries in the USA, when Jews for Jesus got started, and when Zionism sprung up to fight against Bolshevism)

So many here wish to believe 100,000 dead Iraqis.
I just cant buy that number

Well, I can't either. It's much much bigger than that. Probably more like 500,000 by now, including all actions since the First Gulf War.

But to tell you the truth

(As you clearly haven't been telling the truth up until this point)

the United States is not going to let "them" win because too many of the enemys people got killed. so, in the end, the number of deaths are irrelivant.

The United States aren't going to let the Muslims win, you mean. The United States aren't going to let the Communists win, you mean. The number of deaths is relavant. Let's hope the war isn't brought to your shores.

We will prevail in securing our country.

Your country was fairly secure. Going and trashing other people's countries tends to make for less security.

We get hit big again,
then it is possible (Probable) that the military services of the United States of America will un leash weapons with power the likes of which mankind has never whitnessed.

Threatening the rest of the world to submit to the US WILL with promises of a Nuclear Holocaust will not work, Mr. Rententionite.

We will Prevail in secureing our country.

Perhaps whilst US is so focused on other countries, it will not notice the enemies it has made of it's own children. Here's a surprising truth, the greatest number of terrorist activities in America are planned and committed by it's white sons, many of them neonazi extremists.

silly little alquedia has pulled off an incredible feat of arms
that is their nature.they will not stop

Silly little Rentonite. Al Qaeda were armed by the CIA.

and neither will the United States
There is no Question about that, not for the forseeable future.
sorry thats such a hard lump of truth for so many of you.

Specially not when there's the threat of USA using it's NUKES against the world if 'they' (any Non-USA country, one presumes) don't comply, eh ?
Europe can always cut off the USA if things get bad enough. Oil can always be traded for in Euros, if things get bad enough. USA might have the biggest gun, but it doesn't have the best plan. At some point, USA will have to listen and co-operate fully regarding Global Ecology and accept it's responsibilities for environmental pollution and deforestation. At some point, USA will have to abide by the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. Until then, Bully away. I don't have to buy USA Apples laden with oxygen-robbing pesticides when I can eat my sweet-tasting organic european Russets do I ?

 

[invisibleplanet]

I think this is Faux News term for shady group completely unrelated to US operations in Afghanistan.

This is a faux news term, yes.

The Muhajadeen WERE the AFGHAN FIGHTERS. They had many supporters from around the Muslim world, like Bin Laden, and of course, the CIA were by far their most influential of supporters.

Good background can be found by googling for "Richard Labeviere" who wrote about "US complicity in the rise of violent Muslim movements, from the religious brotherhoods that combated nationalist leaders like Egypt's Gamel Abdel Nassar, to the foreign troops sent to Afghanistan in the 1980s, and that country's present-day rulers,the Taliban." AND, if you're really clever, try googling in google.fr and google.de using french and german terms for a wealth of non-english language information about Afghanistan and the Muhajadeen.

"Osama bin Laden's international terrorist apparatus, al-Qaeda, ('the base'), was set up for the muhajadeen (the Afghan fighters), and their Muslim supporters around the world, like bin Laden, who fought the Soviets in the 1979-1989 conflict, as opposed to run of the mill fedayeen, who are fighting the general overall Muslim jihad, but did not fight in Afghanistan), by the CIA's then-favored bad-boy Afghani opium trafficker, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. These guys were secretly financed by the CIA through Pakistan's spook group Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI), until the Soviets departed in 1989." (source: disinfo.com)

 

[CyberRose]

What's an "Arab Afghan" Cyber?

The Arab Afghans? They were the fighters from the Middle East that went to wage Jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan - hence the name 'Arab Afghan'

They were different from the Mujahadeen (who were actual Afghanis) and got their funding from Saudi Arabia and private donors whereas the Mujahadeen recieved funding/supplies from Pakistan intelligence (who was given it by the CIA) I have no idea whether or not the Mujahadeen gave any of the CIA money/supplies to the Arab Afghans but even if they did I wouldn't class that as being funded by the CIA or this £ in my pocket didn't come from the shop next door, at one stage in its life it has probably come from Mi5!!

 

[CyberRose]

Any sources Cyber?

This is out of Jason Burke but I have leant it to someone so cant give you specific quotes or page numbers

 

[CyberRose]

The Arab Afghans? They were the fighters from the Middle East that went to wage Jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan - hence the name 'Arab Afghan'

They were different from the Mujahadeen (who were actual Afghanis) and got their funding from Saudi Arabia and private donors whereas the Mujahadeen recieved funding/supplies from Pakistan intelligence (who was given it by the CIA) I have no idea whether or not the Mujahadeen gave any of the CIA money/supplies to the Arab Afghans but even if they did I wouldn't class that as being funded by the CIA or this £ in my pocket didn't come from the shop next door, at one stage in its life it has probably come from Mi5!!

I mean Afghan Arabs dont I?!

 

[invisibleplanet]

I mean Afghan Arabs dont I?!

You mean Afghan Fighters (muhajadeen) and possibly also non-Afgan Fighters (fedayeen).
Osama bin Laden's international terrorist apparatus, al-Qaeda, ('the base'), was set up for the muhajadeen (the Afghan fighters), and their Muslim supporters around the world, like bin Laden, who fought the Soviets in the 1979-1989 conflict.

I hope that Jason Burke is not the only source of information for you!
As much as his journalistic talent is respected, there are other sources which you ought to check out, esp. Richard Labeviere, the award winning Swiss Journalist. He was, I think, the first journalist to write about 'Al Qaeda, the Mythic Enemy'.

In a provocative exposé, Swiss TV journalist Labeviere argues that the real threat to the West from radical Islamic fundamentalism comes not from Iran or Iraq but rather from America's solid allies- -Saudi Arabia and neighboring oil monarchies. Based on his four-year investigation, Labeviere charges that Saudi Arabia is the principal financial backer of extremist Islamist movements around the world. The linchpin in this operation, he states, is Saudi billionaire Osama bin Ladin, trained by the CIA, who recruited, armed and trained in turn Arab volunteers to fight the Soviet army in the Afghanistan war, thereby strengthening the totalitarian Muslim Taliban regime. Bin Ladin, who, according to the author, maintains close ties with the Saudi and Pakistani secret services, now bankrolls terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and abets Islamist extremist movements in Egypt, Yemen, Somalia, South Africa, Algeria and elsewhere. Veterans of the Afghan "holy war" have been implicated in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City and the attempted murder of Egyptian president Mubarak in 1996. In Labeviere's riveting, often shocking, analysis, the U.S. is an accessory in the rise of Islam, because it manipulates and aids radical Muslim groups in its shortsighted pursuit of its economic interests, especially the energy resources of the Middle East and the oil- and mineral-rich former Soviet republics of Central Asia. Labeviere shows how radical Islamic fundamentalism spreads its influence on two levels: above board, through investment firms, banks and shell companies, and clandestinely, through a network of drug dealing, weapons smuggling and money laundering. This important book sounds a wake-up call to U.S. policy makers.
source: http://www.somaliawatch.org/Archivemay/000506601.htm

 

[CyberRose]

Appoligies for the Fox news source but I dont have Jason Burke's book at hand and this basically says the same as what Burke says...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98115,00.html

 

[invisibleplanet]

well, if FOX news are saying the same as Jason Burke then it must be true

Dispelling the CIA-Bin Laden Myth
Wednesday, September 24, 2003
By Richard Miniter
Two years after the Sept. 11 attacks, no memorial service, cable-news talkfest or university seminar seemed to have been complete without someone emerging from the woodwork to wonder darkly why the CIA ever financed Usama bin Laden "in the first place."

Everyone from Washington Post reporters to Michael Moore (search) seems to buy some version of this.

It is time to lay to rest the nagging doubt held by many Americans that our government was somehow responsible for fostering bin Laden. It's not true and it leaves the false impression that we brought the Sept. 11 attacks down on ourselves. While it is impossible to prove a negative, all available evidence suggests that bin Laden (search) was never funded, trained or armed by the CIA.
<snip>
In the course of researching my book on Bill Clinton and bin Laden, I interviewed Bill Peikney, who was CIA station chief in Islamabad from 1984 to 1986, and Milt Bearden, who was CIA station chief from 1986 to 1989. These two men oversaw the disbursement for all American funds to the anti-Soviet resistance. Both flatly denied that any CIA funds ever went to bin Laden. They felt so strongly about this point that they agreed to go on the record, an unusual move by normally reticent intelligence officers. Mr. Peikney added in an e-mail to me: “I don’t even recall UBL [bin Laden] coming across my screen when I was there.”

There are many reasons to believe them. They knew where the money went. Both men have retired from the CIA; they have no motive to mouth an agency line. And no compelling evidence has emerged that the CIA ever paid bin Laden: no cancelled checks, no invoices, no government reports.

Those who contend that bin Laden received U.S. funds usually make the following argument: America financed the Afghan rebels, bin Laden was among the rebels, therefore, in one way or another, America gave money to bin Laden.

This ignores a key fact: There were two entirely separate rebellions against the Soviets, united only by a common communist enemy. One was financed by Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states and was composed of Islamic extremists who migrated from across the Muslim world. They called themselves “Arab Afghans (search).” Bin Laden was among them. When the Saudis agreed to match U.S. contributions dollar-for-dollar, the sheikhs insisted that their funds go exclusively to the “Arab Afghans,” possibly including bin Laden. Meanwhile, U.S. funds went exclusively to the other rebellion, which was composed of native Afghans. Mr. Bearden told me: “I challenge anyone to give any proof that we gave one dollar to any Arab Afghans, let alone bin Laden.”

Even if the CIA wanted to pay “Arab Afghans” -- which agency officials insist they did not -- bin Laden would be a far from obvious choice. Bin Laden himself rarely left the safety of Pakistan’s northwestern cities and commanded few troops of his own. At the time, bin Laden was the Arab Afghan’s quartermaster, providing food and other supplies.

If a CIA officer tried to give money to bin Laden, he probably would not have lived through the experience. The arch-terrorist was known for his violent anti-Americanism. Dana Rohrabacher, now a Republican congressman from California, told me about a trip he took with the mujahideen (search) in 1987. On that trek, his guide told him not to speak English for the next few hours because they were passing by bin Laden’s camp. “If he hears an American, he will kill you.”

Why is this myth of CIA support for bin Laden so persistent? Some find the myth persuasive because they do not know that America and Saudi Arabia funded two different sets of anti-Soviet fighters. Others on the anti-American left and right, in both Europe and America, find it oddly comforting. It gives solace to those who want to think the worst of us. The CIA-funding myth allows them to return to a familiar pattern, to blame America first. Whatever the cause, this myth weakens America’s case for the war on terror by setting up a moral equivalency between America and Al Qaeda (search). This animates protests at home and makes it harder to win allies abroad

These anecdotes from these two ex-CIA Middle East Division members are hardly proof to what has been written about and known for some time. Of course they would flatly deny any funding had gone to Bin Laden. That would contradict his being America's Public Enemy Number One, wouldn't it. Possibly, any 'compelling evidence' of this would have been housed in the CIA ME Division's HQ, which was destroyed when the WTC collapsed. Possibly, money was laundered through drugs-barons. Why on earth would we expect there to be evidence on paper about Bin Laden and the CIA. That Bin Laden was a CIA client was already KNOWN even before 911 and the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq!!! ANy subsequent historical revisions from sources such as these should be very carefully looked at as being potential propaganda, before being accepted as 'Gospel'.

 

[Dr_Evil]

Soon after 911 Rumsfeld set up the Office of Special Plans its mission was to concoct evidence which would convince Americans that Saddam had links to 911 and that he had wmd. The campaign of the OSP was so successful that most people believed those lies. DR E - Invading Afghanistan had nothing to do with OBL and terrorism, it was about securing the region for American interests and increasing America's access to the region's oil.

It didnt did it? The fact that Afghanistan was his base and where he held his terrorist training camps. The fact that he was financing the tyranical taliban in their conquest for religous purity and persecution?

You are right about rumsfeld setting up propoganda for an attack on iraq but that does not detract from the fact that Bin Laden was to blame and the fact that he was (along with a good propotion of his organisation) in Afghanistan.

You haven't addressed my points about the lies spread by moore about the afghan pipelines. You have just made claims without substantiating them.

 

[Dr_Evil]

More...

The best security for the oil pipelines was an occupation of Afghanistan. If you map the existing and proposed pipeline through Afghanistan and then map the American bases in afghanistan, there's a surprising connection - the bases are located along the pipelines; is that a coincidence?

So, while the invasion of Afghanistan might have been advertised to the "great unwashed" as retaliation for the attacks on 911, the underlying strategy was to secure the region for American interests. See map

I find that very hard to believe as from your map, it appear that the proposed new pipeline will run down the west coast of afghanistan. You claim that the american bases run along that line, but you fail to mention all the other bases dotted around the country, particularly inthe northeast and on the pakistan border. And did it ever occur to you that the reason the pipeline happens to run alongside american bases is that the pipeline was designed to run through strategicly safe areas (that could be defended and are hard to be attacked) , hence why the yanks chose to sight their bases there?

Show me the map with the bases on it and i might believe you.

 

[CyberRose]

well, if FOX news are saying the same as Jason Burke then it must be true

These anecdotes from these two ex-CIA Middle East Division members are hardly proof to what has been written about and known for some time. Of course they would flatly deny any funding had gone to Bin Laden. That would contradict his being America's Public Enemy Number One, wouldn't it. Possibly, any 'compelling evidence' of this would have been housed in the CIA ME Division's HQ, which was destroyed when the WTC collapsed. Possibly, money was laundered through drugs-barons. Why on earth would we expect there to be evidence on paper about Bin Laden and the CIA. That Bin Laden was a CIA client was already KNOWN even before 911 and the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq!!! ANy subsequent historical revisions from sources such as these should be very carefully looked at as being potential propaganda, before being accepted as 'Gospel'.

Well its always dodgy debating about secret operations because by their very nature they are just that - secret! Maybe its propaganda maybe the CIA did what has been described there's no way we will ever know...

 

[Raisin D'etre]

I find that very hard to believe as from your map, it appear that the proposed new pipeline will run down the west coast of afghanistan. You claim that the american bases run along that line, but you fail to mention all the other bases dotted around the country, particularly inthe northeast and on the pakistan border. And did it ever occur to you that the reason the pipeline happens to run alongside american bases is that the pipeline was designed to run through strategicly safe areas (that could be defended and are hard to be attacked) , hence why the yanks chose to sight their bases there?

Duh! No! Never!