9/11 media happenings

[fela fan]

I believe that most of us will agree with you on that.

I used to find it pretty frustrating that public debate had been diverted, at least in my mind. But when i think about it, it's always been this way. Leaders can only do what we the public in effect give them permission to. That means they need to subtlely manipulate us. And of course disinformation and misinformation are great tools. We then head off on an argument that bounces back and forth, leaving out the real points for discussion.

Expose the corrupt monsters running our countries. It's simple, investigate all the negligence and make people responsible, and investigate whether people were intelligence-fatigued out, or whether they ignored the intelligence.

 

[pk]

I used to find it pretty frustrating that public debate had been diverted, at least in my mind. But when i think about it, it's always been this way. Leaders can only do what we the public in effect give them permission to. That means they need to subtlely manipulate us. And of course disinformation and misinformation are great tools. We then head off on an argument that bounces back and forth, leaving out the real points for discussion.

So you are prepared to agree that the hordes of pretend experts claiming all manner of crap about "squibs" and "missiles" are in fact diverting attention from the process of justice and law?

Expose the corrupt monsters running our countries. It's simple, investigate all the negligence and make people responsible, and investigate whether people were intelligence-fatigued out, or whether they ignored the intelligence.

Sure. But don't rely on obviously bias-laden documents invented by anti-semitic cunts, otherwise people just lump the fragments of truth in with all the loony tunes Jazzz bullshit. Monbiot has this aspect absolutely right.

 

[MikeMcc]

I've provided some many times over the last few years mike, but it's always ignored. Never rejected, never commented upon. Except for crispy a few days ago upon my last posting of the link.

The basic timeline should be put on every editor's desk. Furthermore, appropriate people and agencies should be tasked with finding names who failed in their responsibilities on 911, and charging them with criminal negligence.

Then with that twin avenue of investigation, we will find out once and for all whether it was negligence or complicitness.

The likes of monbiot falling into the same trap he accuses others of will never help in a million years.

I fully accept LIHBA, I still believe that it requires a leap of faith to get to LIHOP / MIHOP. LIHBA asssumes taht there were lots of players that, together failed to make the connections prior to the event. LIHP reqires at least a select few that correlate the information at the highest levels (the top 3 or 4 at NSA, CIA, FBI, USSS, JCS, cabinet and both houses). While these are appointees of the administration I can't see how so many could be assembled that would blindly 'follow the faith'. The situation gets even worse for MIHOP because you ave to introduce lower levels of each of the groups into the plan. The size of the conspiracy spirals. personally I don't believe in MIHOP, and I am more than dubious in terms of LIHOP

 

[MikeMcc]

I used to find it pretty frustrating that public debate had been diverted, at least in my mind. But when i think about it, it's always been this way. Leaders can only do what we the public in effect give them permission to. That means they need to subtlely manipulate us. And of course disinformation and misinformation are great tools. We then head off on an argument that bounces back and forth, leaving out the real points for discussion.

Expose the corrupt monsters running our countries. It's simple, investigate all the negligence and make people responsible, and investigate whether people were intelligence-fatigued out, or whether they ignored the intelligence.

Unfortunately with this debate there has been a large pool of people that are prepared to believe in quite outlandish theories that stifle true debate with irrelevancies.

 

[fela fan]

So you are prepared to agree that the hordes of pretend experts claiming all manner of crap about "squibs" and "missiles" are in fact diverting attention from the process of justice and law?



Sure. But don't rely on obviously bias-laden documents invented by anti-semitic cunts, otherwise people just lump the fragments of truth in with all the loony tunes Jazzz bullshit. Monbiot has this aspect absolutely right.

I don't know if they're diverting attention from the process of justice and law, i don't think thers IS any attention on that.

I don't know about the language used to describe such people, but i do agree that this ongoing argument is in some way damaging to ever getting at the truth. At times i can see how frustrating it is to those that feel they're trying to get at the truth, but you've always had conspiracy and counter-conspiracy in a free country. Arguing over conspiracies is exactly what power abusers want.

And that's my point about monbiot's article, together with his rather hysterical tone.

We will never begin to get at what happened that day until we investigate who was negligent in response, and who somehow never acted on quite obvious intelligence. To me the past was ignored and the present was fucked up. Was this down to stupid americans, or some other more sinister americans?

 

[pk]

Also - let's not forget one of the singlemost powerful tenets of American society... the need to confess, a deep-seated throwback to the Pilgrim Fathers, a need to come forward on Oprah and tell all, wiping the tears away, in order for the forgiveness mechanism to redeem them and negate their sins.

It's the American way. Sin first - confess later.

Assuming for a brief second this was all an inside job, how come to date not one single secretary or official struck with a conscience over such heavy loss of life (and I remarked at the time and still believe that even the terrorists would not have expected to towers to collapse the way they did) has come forward to open their hearts and point their fingers?

Not one.

 

[fela fan]

The size of the conspiracy spirals. personally I don't believe in MIHOP, and I am more than dubious in terms of LIHOP

Actually mike, after reading about all the intelligence that led up to the day of 911, mihop seems far more likely than lihop. Mihop in fact would need far less americans to be involved than lihop, much easier to make happen without being linked to the attacks.

Anyone on this forum prepared to invest a few hours (two or three would be a sufficient start) of reading time need only go to the cooperativeresearch site i often link to. Aside from crispy, no-one has ever commented on this link. Not positively (except crispy) or negatively.

It seems to me sometimes that no-one on here is that interested really, they just want a good old slanging match!

The intelligence
The PNAC's mission statement
The primary hegemony of world power
People in power who think nothing of causing other humans' deaths
Control of eurasia

For me it remains the most likely scenario that certain americans began the plan, and then let it unfold with a bunch of al q sorts. I believe this very strongly at times, but occasionally i have to let the doubt in, often from what people might say here, or where i live.

 

[fela fan]

Also - let's not forget one of the singlemost powerful tenets of American society... the need to confess, a deep-seated throwback to the Pilgrim Fathers, a need to come forward on Oprah and tell all, wiping the tears away, in order for the forgiveness mechanism to redeem them and negate their sins.

It's the American way. Sin first - confess later.

Assuming for a brief second this was all an inside job, how come to date not one single secretary or official struck with a conscience over such heavy loss of life (and I remarked at the time and still believe that even the terrorists would not have expected to towers to collapse the way they did) has come forward to open their hearts and point their fingers?

Not one.

pk, the americans you talk of there are the public. I don't ever see those in power acting that way.

Have you considered the possibility that mihop was possible with just only, say, a dozen americans involved in the initial plan? Lihop would have required too many people. Mihop not.

 

[MikeMcc]

Actually mike, after reading about all the intelligence that led up to the day of 911, mihop seems far more likely than lihop. Mihop in fact would need far less americans to be involved than lihop, much easier to make happen without being linked to the attacks.

Anyone on this forum prepared to invest a few hours (two or three would be a sufficient start) of reading time need only go to the cooperativeresearch site i often link to. Aside from crispy, no-one has ever commented on this link. Not positively (except crispy) or negatively.

It seems to me sometimes that no-one on here is that interested really, they just want a good old slanging match!

The intelligence
The PNAC's mission statement
The primary hegemony of world power
People in power who think nothing of causing other humans' deaths
Control of eurasia

For me it remains the most likely scenario that certain americans began the plan, and then let it unfold with a bunch of al q sorts. I believe this very strongly at times, but occasionally i have to let the doubt in, often from what people might say here, or where i live.

(My bold) How do you work that out!? LIHOP only requires key players to suppress information and prevent action, whereas MIHOP require lower level operative to ensure that the plan proceeds in the desired manner, not having the resources to be able to deal with the unexpected would leave the conspirators open to discovery.

 

[MikeMcc]

pk, the americans you talk of there are the public. I don't ever see those in power acting that way.

Have you considered the possibility that mihop was possible with just only, say, a dozen americans involved in the initial plan? Lihop would have required too many people. Mihop not.

The opposite make more sense because you cannot predict every eventuality.

 

[pk]

pk, the americans you talk of there are the public. I don't ever see those in power acting that way.

Apart from Clinton, right?

Have you considered the possibility that mihop was possible with just only, say, a dozen americans involved in the initial plan? Lihop would have required too many people. Mihop not.

A dozen people... to "plan" 9/11?

 

[fela fan]

this is for mike too...

Apart from Clinton, right?



A dozen people... to "plan" 9/11?

Eh? Clinton was dragged kicking and screaming towards the truth. Wasn't he being put up for impeachment, not for his actions, but for his lies.

Not a dozen people, a dozen americans. The figure is somewhat arbitrary, but it represents just a few people.

I suggest that the plans were put into the minds of Al Q (or whoever) via elements of the CIA. Obviously you couldn't have blue eyed blonde haired yankees doing this, but no doubt there are plenty of pakistanis, saudis, afghans, working for the CIA.

Once put into action, just leave it to everyone else (the al q sorts) to do the planning, constantly getting feedback (via those cia employees).

I know this is conjecture, but just about everything is on this topic.

The single hardest thing for me to accept is that all the intelligence they got (some of it very specific), from large numbers of countries, led to 'intelligence-fatigue'.

All i'm showing here is how possible it is to have a mihop using very few numbers of americans.

 

[free spirit]

Anyone on this forum prepared to invest a few hours (two or three would be a sufficient start) of reading time need only go to the cooperativeresearch site i often link to. Aside from crispy, no-one has ever commented on this link. Not positively (except crispy) or negatively.

It seems to me sometimes that no-one on here is that interested really, they just want a good old slanging match!

The intelligence
The PNAC's mission statement
The primary hegemony of world power
People in power who think nothing of causing other humans' deaths
Control of eurasia

For me it remains the most likely scenario that certain americans began the plan, and then let it unfold with a bunch of al q sorts. I believe this very strongly at times, but occasionally i have to let the doubt in, often from what people might say here, or where i live.

I've read the 911 time line and a few others off that site before, and IMO it seem pretty accurate as far as I can tell.

One slight quibble with it is that it includes things like the Secret Service doing prep work in new york for a UN conference etc when it's a bit difficult to really tell what if any significance anyone can draw from this without really knowing how unusual that would be... I'm thinking not very.

It's does have a bit of a bias towards things that might show a conspiracy, But I think it's a useful and pretty accurate tool for pooling information from multiple sources in one place.

not read much of the non911 timelines, been a while since I've been on there, but I might well have a look when I get chance.

 

[fela fan]

The opposite make more sense because you cannot predict every eventuality.

You don't need to predict. The scenario i paint would mean information more than prediction.

One thing that is very interesting, and not so easy to explain, is that all those drills happened to be taking place on the exact morning of the attacks...

Someone knew!

 

[fela fan]

I've read the 911 time line and a few others off that site before, and IMO it seem pretty accurate as far as I can tell.

My very brief reaction to the reams of stuff on that site is, what the fuck did they bother with having intelligence for if they they then go ignore it all.

Within all that is also cases of local cia and fbi operatives (on the ground so to speak) having their concerns and requests for action continually bounced back.

It's just astounding that with such quality intelligence available that the attacks were able to take place. That leads to lihop, but that is too difficult, too many people needed to 'be in on it'. I therefore am a mihop advocate, have been for a few years.

But no-one knows for sure!!!

 

[free spirit]

yeah - the blocking / dead ending of investigations is probably the only real evidence that something might have been going on, I guess I might have a look at that again when I get chance see if anything else has come to light since I last looked a couple of years back.

Thing that fucks me off about all the bullshit theories that get spouted is that if all these people had focussed on demanding full disclosure / independent investigations into that side of things they / we might have got somewhere, whether it was the press or some committee or foi requests by truth seekers... instead they put their efforts into foi demands to see the cctv footage from the pentagon, why? a plane hit it, fucking deal with it

 

[free spirit]

still not necessarily evidence of a conspiracy as things stand mind, could just as easily be evidence of interagency wrangling, beurocratic bullshit, or even the boss of the individual investigators just wanting them to stop wasting time on what they perceived as wild goose chases and get on with some 'real work' in the way that crap bosses tend to do...

"If that paperwork isn't done by the end of the week your on a report... "

"but I think I might be on the verge of breaking a major international terrorist network planning the biggest terrorist attack ever on US soil... "

"do I look like I give a fuck, do the fucking paperwork NOW"

 

[pk]

Slightly off-topic, but just to hammer home the point to sneering conspiranoids who laughed at the prospect of a passport being found in the streets below the WTC... this photo shows two men examining a seat cover from Flight 11.

http://www.pbase.com/peteburke73/image/1459719/original

 

[pk]

Oh and whilst we're on this excellent/tragic set of pictures...

Does this look like a controlled demolition to you?

WTC2 falling onto the Marriot Hotel:

http://www.pbase.com/peteburke73/image/2281432/original

Fucking conspiranoid deluded wankers - get a life or change your medication.

 

[fela fan]

Slightly off-topic, but just to hammer home the point to sneering conspiranoids who laughed at the prospect of a passport being found in the streets below the WTC... this photo shows two men examining a seat cover from Flight 11.

Err, i laughed at that, although i'd not class myself as a sneering conspiranoid.

I think it very funny how a passport survived that inferno, unsinged, and then just to complete the fairytale, it happened to be one of the hijacker's passports.

Wonderful!!

 

[pk]

Err, i laughed at that, although i'd not class myself as a sneering conspiranoid.

I think it very funny how a passport survived that inferno, unsinged, and then just to complete the fairytale, it happened to be one of the hijacker's passports.

Wonderful!!

Leaving aside the fact that you don't class yourself as sneering, yet you speak of fairytales - all the while sticking up for ludicrous suggestions of 9/11 possibly being organised by a mere 12 Americans.

How do you know the passport was "unsinged"? Have you ever seen it?

If the hijacker was in the cockpit, then that part of the aircraft went through and out the other side of the WTC, before the fuel ignited, so pretty much all the debris forward of the resultant blast would have been blown away at high velocity from the building down to the street... stands to reason the only people in the cockpit would have been hijackers who would have had their passports with them.

If a seat cover survived, made of cloth and similar flammable material, then a passport could certainly have survived.

Plenty of debris in this picture - not on fire - showering down to earth...

Another thing to bear in mind is that in an aircraft like that the cabin is pressurised - a sudden puncture of that pressurised environment means the air goes crazy, I've seen air crash footage from Russia where the plane broke up in mid air, and the pressure drop has torn the clothes from each of the victims.

It's still more of a likely scenario than the "black ops" bullshit that deluded wankers still talk about regarding 9/11.

 

[MikeMcc]

Leaving aside the fact that you don't class yourself as sneering, yet you speak of fairytales - all the while sticking up for ludicrous suggestions of 9/11 possibly being organised by a mere 12 Americans.

How do you know the passport was "unsinged"? Have you ever seen it?

If the hijacker was in the cockpit, then that part of the aircraft went through and out the other side of the WTC, before the fuel ignited, so pretty much all the debris forward of the resultant blast would have been blown away at high velocity from the building down to the street... stands to reason the only people in the cockpit would have been hijackers who would have had their passports with them.

If a seat cover survived, made of cloth and similar flammable material, then a passport could certainly have survived.

Plenty of debris in this picture - not on fire - showering down to earth...

Another thing to bear in mind is that in an aircraft like that the cabin is pressurised - a sudden puncture of that pressurised environment means the air goes crazy, I've seen air crash footage from Russia where the plane broke up in mid air, and the pressure drop has torn the clothes from each of the victims.

It's still more of a likely scenario than the "black ops" bullshit that deluded wankers still talk about regarding 9/11.

The photo I saw of it showed it pretty badly charred

 

[pk]

I'd never heard of a photo of it before...

 

[detective-boy]

Personally, i'd like a respected paper in the US or UK to investigate every single one of the incompetences/negligences by those paid to do their jobs that allowed those planes to roam around and hit their targets.

Check .

And i'd like an investigation into why reams and reams of intelligence from multi-sources were ignored.

Check.

Everything else i'm afraid is hot air.

Check.

So why do you encourage Jazzz in his hot air ramblings which are far more likely to prevent either of these things happening for the reasons previously posted ...

 

[MikeMcc]

I'd never heard of a photo of it before...

I'll have a double check of it tonight ofr you and see if I can find the link.

 

[editor]

One thing that is very interesting, and not so easy to explain, is that all those drills happened to be taking place on the exact morning of the attacks...

Drills happen all the time, fool.

 

[pk]

Added to the fact that drill would be planned in advance, the date known to many - it may have been advantageous for the terrorists to have commited this atrocity on a drill day, creating further confusion.

 

[fela fan]

Drills happen all the time, fool.

Oh yeah? You're talking a load of rubbish again. Of course they don't happen all the time.

Fool.

 

[fela fan]

Added to the fact that drill would be planned in advance, the date known to many - it may have been advantageous for the terrorists to have commited this atrocity on a drill day, creating further confusion.

So much conjecture. You're just like the conspiranoids.

 

[fela fan]

If the hijacker was in the cockpit, then that part of the aircraft went through and out the other side of the WTC, before the fuel ignited, so pretty much all the debris forward of the resultant blast would have been blown away at high velocity from the building down to the street... stands to reason the only people in the cockpit would have been hijackers who would have had their passports with them.

If a seat cover survived, made of cloth and similar flammable material, then a passport could certainly have survived.

How funny. Do you realise this is just as barking as the conspiracy stuff you have so much contempt for?

You've turned into one of the people you so despise pk.