ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Belushi said:
Some CTers get quite emotional when someone gainsays their pet conspiracy, don't they?
Ex-Italian President: Intel Agencies Know 9/11 An Inside Job
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Some CTers get quite emotional when someone gainsays their pet conspiracy, don't they?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Belushi said:I'm as bad as the Nazis
Yes, you are.
Don't expect a Yuletide hug from me this year, young man!
kyser_soze said:
EddyBlack said:
To illustrate my point, here is map of the area:
Turkmenistan has the fourth largest reserves of natural gas. However, being landlocked, transporting this gas to market is a problem.
This report, American centred, looks at the options. I believe it is from the late 90s.
To summarise:
1. Iran is, the most logical choice, but obviously political factors come into play.
2. The Afghanistan Pakistan route:
‘When examining a map, the next most attractive option geopolitically leads to the southeast through Afghanistan and Pakistan. The proposal involves building both oil and natural gas pipelines through western Afghanistan to connect with the pipeline networks in Pakistan which would bring the products to Pakistan and Pakistani ports on the Indian Ocean for further export by tanker. Yet a major problem exists. In actuality, Afghanistan as a state really no longer exists. A multi-ethnic religious war rages throughout much of the northern tier of the country among three main foes.
….The current fighting involves three groups each representing, in their own special way, each of the aforementioned ethnicities. The Pashtuni Taleban, an Islamist movement born in the Afghanistani refugee camps in Pakistan, now controls the southern two-thirds of the country’ etc.
3. Then we look at the option of transporting across the Caspian and the via Baku (capitol of Azerb.)
‘Then there are three possible routes via the Caucasus Mountains if undersea pipelines were built across the Caspian Sea to Baku, Azerbaijan. One crosses through Azerbaijan to Russian and terminates at the Black Sea for sea transport via the Bosphorous. The second traverses Azerbaijan and Georgia, including the breakaway Republic of Abkhazia, with a similar termination on the Black Sea. The third goes through Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Turkey and terminates on the Mediterranean at the Turkish port of Ceyhan. Yet all these routes involve difficult and seemingly unsolvable ethnic conflicts.
…One of the main goals of the Russian attack on Chechnya in December of 1994 was to ensure control of the oil pipeline which runs from Baku, via Grozny, the Chechen capital, to the Russian city of Tikhoretsk.
Another conflict affecting potential oil routes is occurring in the Caucasus republic of Georgia. Russia wants to prevent oil from Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan from going the "Western" route through Georgia to Turkey. Moscow's support of civil strife in Georgia is directly connected to its goal of perpetuating conflict in the Caucasus.’
Notes on Unocal
‘The difficulties experienced by Bridas and Larmag apparently have persuaded most western companies to hold back from entering the Turkmen energy scene. One significant exception to this rule is U.S.-based Unocal, which is becoming increasingly active in Turkmenistan's gas sector.
Unocal, meanwhile, is also heavily involved in Turkmenistan's gas sector. In March 1996, a consortium of Unocal and Saudi Arabia's Delta signed an agreement with Russia's Gazprom to help develop gas reserves in the country, and also to build a nearly 900-mile long, $3 billion pipeline from Turkmenistan's giant Dauletabad field through Afghanistan, to the Pakistani gas field of Sui in Baluchistan province, and on to the port city of Karachi…’
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So in order to build an oil pipeline, the US kills 3000 of it's own citizens and gets itself involved in a conflict even it's own military planners said would drag on for years? Seems a tad disproportionate even for the Bush administration...
Augie March
blahem
The one thing that always gets me about conspiracy theorists is that they always become so consumed with how something could've been done, they always seem to forget the plausability of why it was done in the first place.
A 9/11 conspiracy is such an uneccessarily complicated and convoluted plot, it doesn't make sense that a group of (I'd imagine) trained, intelligent people would concut such an idea in the first place.
A 9/11 conspiracy is such an uneccessarily complicated and convoluted plot, it doesn't make sense that a group of (I'd imagine) trained, intelligent people would concut such an idea in the first place.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
EddyBlack said:
If it was more than just one company involved I say you have a point...but the Saudis...
I basically inclined toward personal politics rather than a grand over-arching scheme tho - and it's worth remembering that one PNAC document (which contained very little that was new in terms of objectives from stated USFP since WWII) is bearing an awful lot of weight here as primary evidence that the decision was taken deliberately to ignore the intelligence warnings, esp given the climate at the White House, CIA, NSA etc
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
NSA - Condi the Cold Warrior, up until 9/11 she was known for being a Soviet specialist, and viewed Russia as prime threat
CIA - George Tenet not popular with the agency OR the White House.
Have a cold so can't be arsed to type more, but I have written about this previously on these threads.
CIA - George Tenet not popular with the agency OR the White House.
Have a cold so can't be arsed to type more, but I have written about this previously on these threads.
I get your drift, I'm looking forward to reading what Bob Woodward says about it.
As far as Tenet's role, I spoke a little about that earlier and linked to this page which has loads of mainstream media articles, although I don't know wheather I endorse whatever angle the webmaster has.
George Tenet articles
Old news of course, but another important example of missed opportunities is the memo of Coleen Rowley the former FBI agent.
memo
As far as Tenet's role, I spoke a little about that earlier and linked to this page which has loads of mainstream media articles, although I don't know wheather I endorse whatever angle the webmaster has.
George Tenet articles
Old news of course, but another important example of missed opportunities is the memo of Coleen Rowley the former FBI agent.
memo
bluestreak
HomosexualityIsStalin’sAtomBombtoDestroyAmerica
Yossarian said:
Ah, but at the moment the money is going to the arms industry AND the oil industry. War is very good for the economy. Well, not Iraq's economy, obv. Building a wee pipeline wouldn't have transferred so much money into the pockets of George's mates, not at all!
This letter by former FBI agent Coleen Rowley to director Robert Mueller is really very interesting. It looks at the investigative failiures and missed opportunities that Rowley witnessed.
To summarise some of the key points:
Rowley was investigating Zacarias Moussouri prior to 911 as one of the ‘Minneapolis agents’. He has since been convicted as one of the plotters of the 911 attack.
‘I feel that certain facts, including the following, have, up to now, been omitted, downplayed, glossed over and/or mis-characterized in an effort to avoid or minimize personal and/or institutional embarrassment on the part of the FBI and/or perhaps even for improper political reasons:’
I will summarise these facts:
1. Minneapolis agents identified Moussouri as a terrorist threat at an early stage. They where concerned that he was undertaking flight training They even took him into custody to counter the threat.
2. Suspicions of Moussouri deepened following a French intelligence report identifying him as a terrorist with connections to Al-Quaeda. It became a matter of urgency to get a search warrant in order to search his laptop computer and personal effects.
3. Even after this French intelligence, which had followed the FBIs own identification and arrest, FBI refused to allow a search warrant.
Further intelligence from the French and other agencies continued.
‘It is obvious, from my firsthand knowledge of the events and the detailed documentation that exists, that the agents in Minneapolis who were closest to the action and in the best position to gauge the situation locally, did fully appreciate the terrorist risk/danger posed by Moussaoui and his possible co-conspirators even prior to September 11th. Even without knowledge of the Phoenix communication (and any number of other additional intelligence communications that FBIHQ personnel were privy to in their central coordination roles), the Minneapolis agents appreciated the risk. So I think it's very hard for the FBI to offer the "20-20 hindsight" justification for its failure to act!’
It goes on, read the full memo here.
To summarise some of the key points:
Rowley was investigating Zacarias Moussouri prior to 911 as one of the ‘Minneapolis agents’. He has since been convicted as one of the plotters of the 911 attack.
‘I feel that certain facts, including the following, have, up to now, been omitted, downplayed, glossed over and/or mis-characterized in an effort to avoid or minimize personal and/or institutional embarrassment on the part of the FBI and/or perhaps even for improper political reasons:’
I will summarise these facts:
1. Minneapolis agents identified Moussouri as a terrorist threat at an early stage. They where concerned that he was undertaking flight training They even took him into custody to counter the threat.
2. Suspicions of Moussouri deepened following a French intelligence report identifying him as a terrorist with connections to Al-Quaeda. It became a matter of urgency to get a search warrant in order to search his laptop computer and personal effects.
3. Even after this French intelligence, which had followed the FBIs own identification and arrest, FBI refused to allow a search warrant.
Further intelligence from the French and other agencies continued.
‘It is obvious, from my firsthand knowledge of the events and the detailed documentation that exists, that the agents in Minneapolis who were closest to the action and in the best position to gauge the situation locally, did fully appreciate the terrorist risk/danger posed by Moussaoui and his possible co-conspirators even prior to September 11th. Even without knowledge of the Phoenix communication (and any number of other additional intelligence communications that FBIHQ personnel were privy to in their central coordination roles), the Minneapolis agents appreciated the risk. So I think it's very hard for the FBI to offer the "20-20 hindsight" justification for its failure to act!’
It goes on, read the full memo here.
‘the FBI Supervisory Special Agent (SSA) who was the one most involved in the Moussaoui matter and who, up to that point, seemed to have been consistently, almost deliberately thwarting the Minneapolis FBI agents' efforts (see number 5). Even after the attacks had begun, the SSA in question was still attempting to block the search of Moussaoui's computer, characterizing the World Trade Center attacks as a mere coincidence with Misseapolis' prior suspicions about Moussaoui.2’
With friends like that in the chain of command who needs enemies!
‘5. The fact is that key FBIHQ personnel whose jobs it was to assist and coordinate with field division agents on terrorism investigations and the obtaining and use of FISA searches (and who theoretically were privy to many more sources of intelligence information than field division agents), continued to, almost inexplicably, throw up roadblocks and undermine Minneapolis' by-now desperate efforts to obtain a FISA search warrant, long after the French intelligence service provided its information and probable cause became clear. HQ personnel brought up almost ridiculous questions in their apparent efforts to undermine the probable cause.
6 In all of their conversations and correspondence, HQ personnel never disclosed to the Minneapolis agents that the Phoenix Division had, only approximately three weeks earlier, warned of Al Qaeda operatives in flight schools seeking flight training for terrorist purposes!’
The e-mail communications between Minneapolis and FBIHQ, however, speak for themselves and there are far better witnesses than me who can provide their first hand knowledge of these events characterized in one Minneapolis agent's e-mail as FBIHQ is "setting this up for failure."
Probably talking to myself here.
With friends like that in the chain of command who needs enemies!
‘5. The fact is that key FBIHQ personnel whose jobs it was to assist and coordinate with field division agents on terrorism investigations and the obtaining and use of FISA searches (and who theoretically were privy to many more sources of intelligence information than field division agents), continued to, almost inexplicably, throw up roadblocks and undermine Minneapolis' by-now desperate efforts to obtain a FISA search warrant, long after the French intelligence service provided its information and probable cause became clear. HQ personnel brought up almost ridiculous questions in their apparent efforts to undermine the probable cause.
6 In all of their conversations and correspondence, HQ personnel never disclosed to the Minneapolis agents that the Phoenix Division had, only approximately three weeks earlier, warned of Al Qaeda operatives in flight schools seeking flight training for terrorist purposes!’
The e-mail communications between Minneapolis and FBIHQ, however, speak for themselves and there are far better witnesses than me who can provide their first hand knowledge of these events characterized in one Minneapolis agent's e-mail as FBIHQ is "setting this up for failure."
Probably talking to myself here.
Badger Kitten
oof
I'm reading. And re-reading Bob Woodward's State of Denial.
Edited.
On second thoughts I'll start a new thread, to much rubbish on this one for the passing reader.
Thread:
Why Afghanistan? and Al-Quaeda connections to pipeline consortium
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=234547
On second thoughts I'll start a new thread, to much rubbish on this one for the passing reader.
Thread:
Why Afghanistan? and Al-Quaeda connections to pipeline consortium
www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=234547
Jonti
what the dormouse said
Well, Blair's false prospectus for war against Iraq made no sense either. It was just transparent nonsense that a very great many people saw through right from the start. And it required a conspiracy of sorts to get it produced and pushed through Parliament and onto the public.Augie March said:
Then the UK's aggressive war against Iraq was still launched on the back of that false prospectus. So I think we do have to accept it can happen that people in government sometimes lie and conspire to start wars. I would agree that this is usually in an opportunist sort of way like that of Blair and his fellow conspirators; but smoothing the path or turning a blind eye to evidence of an impending attack qualifies as "opportunist" in my view.
I'm not sure what you mean by "a 9/11 conspiracy". There certainly was a careful conspiracy to attack New York with jetliners. So I guess you mean the kind of "theory" (much loved by people who haven't the faintest grasp of physics and science) that has the WTC towers pre-rigged with explosives? If so, I certainly agree that that is so silly and ludicrous it's probably supported by David Shayler and his ilk.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
No, the thread, and others like it, generally refer to the wider meme that the US Government was either directly invovled in organising 9/11, or let it happen deliberately.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050808&articleId=821
anyone seeing a pattern here
anyone seeing a pattern here
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
fattboy said:
Can you actually establish a pattern based on two examples/instances?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Evidence for what?
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