Robert Fisk: Even I question the 'truth' about 9/11

[8den]

it would have required world-class acrobatics from an alledged pilot documented to be virtually useless with even small planes.

Taff I swear to fucking god if you reduce me to backing this up with links, I will bitch slap the pwnage into you.

Look www.911myths.com blows this out of the fucking water. Check it out, read it, come back, if I catch you regurating this crap again on this site, I'll expose you as the clueless ill informed fuckwit you come across as here.

Still, it might be true becuase the JFK case featured a magic bullet didnt it?

No it didn't numnuts. No one proports the "magic bullet" theory aside from conspiracy theorists who claim it's the "offical explanation"

It's not. It's a bullshit conspiracy theorist strawman argument.

Taffy meet the Single Bullet Theory Now watch the above, and get how conspiracy theorists distort facts to suit their agenda. Now armed with this, exam 911 conspiracy theories.

I dont know what Castro does or doesnt know, but he has been on the recieving end of plenty of clandestine CIA attempts on his life and the reputation of his country to know more than I do about the underbelly of the worlds no. 1 terror state.

Yes I'm sure the US shares forensic information about bodies at the pentagon with it's closest enemy.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Oh come on - no need to be coy, now!

You explicity asked how many of these "U75 parrots of the US administration coincidence theory" would "re-think their line" in the light of ol' Castro's mumblings, so it only seems reasonable to ask who these "parrots" are.

It's clear that you think there's quite a few, so could you share some names with us all please? Thanks!Oh! A leading 9/11 writer! That sounds grand! Who was he/she then?

it aint just U75, its just about every thread on the subject on any message board you can care to mention. There is a prejudice against often reasonable lines of enquirey. There is a clinging to conjecture in the same way as the conspiriloons they scorn. They are desperate to paint skeptics as laser obsessed loons or whatever. In some cases the "truthers" could probably do with psychriatric help but that is true of people in just about every field of politics Ive ever come across.

So no, I wont name names - it's a general attitude that is evident for all to see: "oh, all the questions have been answered. Shut up - you are mad"

As is the assumption that it MUST have been an inside job just because factor a, b or c doesnt stack up at first viewing..

Its a general game of "here's a link by an eminent person or witness that demonstrates your'e a loon" followed by "here's a link by an eminent person or witness that demonstrates its fishy"

That is why a full re-opening of the case would be beneficial, it probably wouldnt reach as many conclusions as many would like, but it could certainly cover areas not covered by the last enquirey which didnt even have the power or balls (i dont know which) to make the president and vice president testify separately, under oath and in public.

The writer was Ian Henshall for what it's worth, co-author of "911 revealed" - perfectly nice and well reasoned chap as it happens, who reaches no conclusions himself. I will continue to look into the various anomolies of 911 without jumping un neccessarily to conclusions. I trust others will do likewise.

"911 truthers" can not claim to know the truth, if the official conspiracy theory doesnt stand up with the full weight of the establishment behind it, there's less chance of the various Truther theories neccessarily holding up.

It is simply an error of fact to suppose that conjecture and hypothesis are the preserve of one side of this debate.

 

[editor]

it aint just U75, its just about every thread on the subject on any message board you can care to mention.

No, you specifically mentioned the "U75 parrots of the US administration coincidence theory."

So who are they? I'd like to know if I should be offended or not, you see.

Moreover, almost all of the wild loon arguments here have been destroyed by coherent arguments backed by well-sourced credible analysis and research, so perhaps you might give me some examples of threads populated with people blindly arguing for the "US administration coincidence theory."

Oh, and Ian Henshall? Is this what his book is about: http://home.clara.net/heureka/books/911-revealed.htm

 

[8den]

it aint just U75, its just about every thread on the subject on any message board you can care to mention. There is a prejudice against often reasonable lines of enquirey. There is a clinging to conjecture in the same way as the conspiriloons they scorn.

Conjecture like?

So no, I wont name names - it's a general attitude that is evident for all to see: "oh, all the questions have been answered. Shut up - you are mad"

So you've got nothing then? Grand so.

Its a general game of "here's a link by an eminent person or witness that demonstrates your'e a loon" followed by "here's a link by an eminent person or witness that demonstrates its fishy"

I think on the whole, in fact completely on the whole the people with the "eminent" persons whose techincal or scientific background reject the conspiracy theories, are generally shown to be highly reputiable and willing to put their money where there mouths are.

Troofers on the other hand make bold claims about the expertise on their side of their argument, but when examined these experts are nothing of the sort.

Example. The website ae911truth.org Proports to be a collection of "architects and engineers for truth". However I spent several days being listed as an Architect or Engineer for truth on this site, despite being neither, and signing up as 'Professor Hubert J Farnsworth" with a specialisation in "Doomsday devices".

To this date not a single article on the collapse of the WTC, the pentagon attack or United 93 has appeared in a reputed peer reviewed journal, that supports the conspiracy theories.

That is why a full re-opening of the case would be beneficial, it probably wouldnt reach as many conclusions as many would like, but it could certainly cover areas not covered by the last enquirey which didnt even have the power or balls (i dont know which) to make the president and vice president testify separately, under oath and in public.

And tell us taffy who should chair such an investigation? What powers should it have? If this goes to the top of the US government are you happy for the US government to investigate themselves?

It is simply an error of fact to suppose that conjecture and hypothesis are the preserve of one side of this debate.

No but it isn't an error of fact to suggest that conjecture and speculation is the sum total of the truther side of the debate.*

But hey feel free to provide me with the facts they have


*Oh and lies, misquoting, misrepresenting etc...

 

[Gmart]

Any conspiracy is the same as a religion, it needs a step of faith to believe in it either way.

 

[fela fan]

Why are you calling it into question?

Please list your reasons why Seffen's professional analysis should be called into question in the context of his academic background and your complete failure to find a single credible piece of expert analysis from anyone on the entire globe who supports the 'explosives' theory.

Can you do that without resort to more personal insults too, because I've had just about enough of your lip.

Enough of MY lip? MY personal insults?? At least you're not on the end of the abuse that you throw at me. Liar, fraud, unpleasant person. clueless plonker you've called me. I've called you nothing, only a hypocrite, and that's not abuse, just the truth.

Again, for i've said it a few times now, i am not calling IT into question. Why can't you read this, why can't you understand this? I'm calling your reaction to seffen's report into question. Can you not see the difference here?

And again, for i've told you a few times now, i have not failed "to find a single credible piece of expert analysis from anyone on the entire globe who supports the 'explosives' theory" quite simply coz i ain't fucking interested in the explosives theory. To be honest i find it very difficult to understand how explosives could have been planted in the first place.

 

[editor]

I've called you nothing, only a hypocrite, and that's not abuse, just the truth.

Shut up, dickhead.

 

[fela fan]

Fela's one of the reasons why 9/11 threads end up in the bin.

He's not interested in serious, credible research. He's not interested in expert analysis, neither is he interested in dispassionately examining the facts and the evidence and arriving at a collectively informed opinion.

Yeah, it's my finger on the button.

Of course i'm interested in research, and i have no time for dogdy websites. I've done shedloads of research in the areas i'm interested in. I don't give any time to any explosives coz i can't see how they could have been planted, so i'm not bothered with reading up on it.

One of the things i've always done on these threads is to call you and others for your hypocrisy. Naturally enough you don't like this, so you resort to rather foul personal abuse, all the while claiming it's me who is doing the abusing. It could hardly be made up. You consistently accuse me of things you are doing yourself, and you don't even appear to see it.

In a nutshell your hypocrisy is that you are quick to say how others are quick to believe whatever fits their bill, while doing the very same thing yourself. You hide behind the veneer of your sources being somehow more respectable, but nevertheless none of has any evidence, so when you and bees are claiming to be providing evidence of this or that then i find that rather telling.

Of course, when i get close to the bone, you don't like it, so you then chuck the worst possible abuse at me (liar, fraud, clueless plonker), or you simply bin the thread. Don't forget too editor some of the threads that you have simply wiped from the database as if they had never even existed. Was that because of me too? Why, yes. I went down areas you didn't want explored.

 

[fela fan]

Shut up, dickhead.

And the abuse keeps on coming. I hope you enjoy abusing people editor.

 

[editor]

And the abuse keeps on coming.

You really are the worst kind of lying, weaselling, dishonest hypocrite.

And don't worry, that's not abuse, just the truth.

 

[fela fan]

You really are the worst kind of lying, weaselling, dishonest hypocrite.

And don't worry, that's not abuse, just the truth.

So you won't be addressing my points then?

Just about everything you describe me as fits yourself down to a T mate. Funny innit! I wonder how you could get the description so correct while attributing it to the wrong person. Ah, would you like a mirror mate?

 

[editor]

You hide behind the veneer of your sources being somehow more respectable, but nevertheless none of has any evidence, so when you and bees are claiming to be providing evidence of this or that then i find that rather telling.

Please fuck off this thread because it's clear you've got absolutely nothing intelligent to offer.

edit: I see the 'mirrors' are now out again, so it's definitely time for you to leave.

 

[fela fan]

Please fuck off this thread because it's clear you've got absolutely nothing intelligent to offer.

edit: I see the 'mirrors' are now out again, so it's definitely time for you to leave.

No i don't think so, when did you introduce rules as to who or who cannot contribute to a thread?

But in any case, i've made my point, so unless there's any more abuse to defend myself from i think i can help you out by taking a break and letting you cool down editor. Have a good sleep.

 

[warren]

If I may but in to the argument regarding 9/11 conspiracy theories. The issue is

1) Conspiracy theories have historically always been very popular with the public.

2) History will eventually show what happened on 9/11, and that it was done by al-Qaeda. Few appreciated that a bunch of 'rag heads' in caves could pull off such a maneuver. There are a few men such as Coleman, Sheur?? and O'Neill that did appreciate this BUT they were not taken seriously by their superiors.

3) The CIA is a huge bureaucracy Now it would be very difficult to pull off such a fraud without a huge amount of people involved and someone would 'grass up' the group involved.

4) There is ample evidence out there that Al-Qaeda did this themselves with some good planning which in retrospect seemed obvious given the pre-9/11 situation.

5) There is little evidence that G.W.B was a neo-conservative before 9/11 however he did have unfinished business in Iraq. Saddam tried to kill his father, oil, Haliberton, liberating the Iraqi people etc etc. It is possible that OBL calculated what would happen when he attacked America and waited until Bush was in power to execute the attack.

6) After the terrorist attack on America the response in Afghanistan was justified but poorely executed.

7) The war in Iraq has been a disaster but to pull out now would make a bad situation possibly worse.

8) Neo-Conservatives are not the epitomy of evil. Just have a rather overly simplistic view of the World (as does OBL) and are perhaps finally listening to their critics and accepting they were wrong.

9) Look up the term Takfiri.

10) The only way to win an a-symetric war is genocide or hearts and minds.

11) Do not ask me for links to back up my theories.

 

[editor]

11) Do not ask me for links to back up my theories.

I'll go along with most of that.

 

[phildwyer]

Castro hasn't made too many bad calls over the years. His intelligence service is one of the world's best.

 

[fela fan]

Castro hasn't made too many bad calls over the years. His intelligence service is one of the world's best.

Nor has fisk. He's one of the world's best in journalism...!

 

[editor]

Castro hasn't made too many bad calls over the years. His intelligence service is one of the world's best.

So what are you saying Phil? That all those eyewitnesses suffered a mass delusion when they clearly saw a plane hitting the Pentagon and the original plane, the phone calls from the plane were faked by CIA's Mike Yarwood Team, the real plane vanished into an alternative reality and the passengers are in fact fit and well and living in Penge?

 

[8den]

Nor has fisk. He's one of the world's best in journalism...!

Would you like a list of all of the catalogue of errors Fisk has made in his journalist career? There are basic factual errors in Fisk's 911 article, that he could have verified quite easily as completely untrue, but Fisk doesn't bother to check.

But hey everyone's entitled to an opinion, eh Fela? And opinion's are just as good as facts in your books!

 

[Aldebaran]

There are basic factual errors in Fisk's 911 article, that he could have verified quite easily as completely untrue, but Fisk doesn't bother to check.

I did some research on the origins of the contenance of that article too. The text on the Atta letter Fisk wrote some years ago. I don't know why it was inserted in this opinion piece.
I didn't find to date the first page of that letter either, but it some excerpts of it (in a translation I can't verify) were quoted in the Washington Post on september 28, 2001 before the "official" release of 3 other pages, supposedly of that same letter.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A37557-2001Sep27&notFound=true

Every Muslim would agree on it that the opening of that letter in the version/translation as quoted by the Washington Post :

"In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate. . . . In the name of God, of myself and of my family . . . I pray to you God to forgive me from all my sins, to allow me to glorify you in every possible way."

can not come from a Muslim. It is insane.

So there are a few options:
a)The WP had the first page but couldn't translate the opening sentence properly
b)The WP had the page and a proper translation and hence it is the most strange thing to ever been written by a Muslim
c)The WP never had that page but found it a good piece of sensationalism to add a so called opening sentence while they never saw one.

Remain also the quesitons why, if that page exists, it was not made available along with the other ones and secondly: why not eliminate all speculation about the identity of the writer with an expertise by a graphologist. (Which in no way would be conclusive evidence that the one who wrote it is also the original author of the text.)

salaam.

 

[editor]

can not come from a Muslim. It is insane..

Even an unhinged mass murderer full of hate?

 

[Aldebaran]

Even an unhinged mass murderer full of hate?

No. It turns around the section "In the name of God ( bismillah) of myself and of my family" .
Including yourself and/or your family in the bismillah is insane, really. No Muslim would even remotely come to the idea in his wildest dreams. (It goes beyond blasphemy, among others.)
Writing the bismillah without havingit followed by the rest of the glorification is also absolutely strange.
You do that for something simple, before you start your meal, for example, as a recognition that all comes from God.
Not when you appeal to God for a blessing (or assistance or permission) for you and/or your actions.

salaam.

 

[warren]

No. It turns around the section "In the name of God ( bismillah) of myself and of my family" .
Including yourself and/or your family in the bismillah is insane, really. No Muslim would even remotely come to the idea in his wildest dreams. (It goes beyond blasphemy, among others.)
Writing the bismillah without havingit followed by the rest of the glorification is also absolutely strange.
You do that for something simple, before you start your meal, for example, as a recognition that all comes from God.
Not when you appeal to God for a blessing (or assistance or permission) for you and/or your actions.

salaam.

Must have been either mis-translated then or done on purpose by the hijackers to make it look like a Mossad/CIA conspiracy.

 

[jæd]

Nor has fisk. He's one of the world's best in journalism...!

So suddenly we *do* have an opinion...?

 

[phildwyer]

So what are you saying Phil? That all those eyewitnesses suffered a mass delusion when they clearly saw a plane hitting the Pentagon and the original plane, the phone calls from the plane were faked by CIA's Mike Yarwood Team, the real plane vanished into an alternative reality and the passengers are in fact fit and well and living in Penge?

I'm saying I've no idea what happened, but Fidel Castro and Robert Fisk are no fools, and their opinions have to be taken seriously.

 

[phildwyer]

No. It turns around the section "In the name of God ( bismillah) of myself and of my family" .

Blimey. Even I know that a Muslim would never write that. It's basically equating oneself with God. But that fact makes it *harder* for me to believe it was faked. Why would any faker much such an obvious cock-up? Must be a mistranslation, I'd say.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Blimey. Even I know that a Muslim would never write that. It's basically equating oneself with God. But that fact makes it *harder* for me to believe it was faked. Why would any faker much such an obvious cock-up? Must be a mistranslation, I'd say.

It does seem a tad odd that any fakers could have the means to create holographic planes, install explosives etc etc, yet not have the ability to create a basic covering letter

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Fidel Castro... have to be taken seriously.

I dunno, he's hardly a neutral source of information when it comes to an opinion on the USA is he?

 

[editor]

Writing the bismillah without havingit followed by the rest of the glorification is also absolutely strange..

So is twisting your faith around to justify the random mass murder of innocents, no?

Just a thought, like.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

So is twisting your faith around to justify the random mass murder of innocents, no?

Not all that uncommon, unfortunately.