9/11 media happenings

[pk]

okay, well no more AFP.

Quoted for posterity.

At last - we're getting somewhere.

So - by default - Loose Change is also bollocks, yes?

Here Jazzz - you should do some actual factual research.

Glad to see the neo-nazis are losing their influence over you.

Read this lot and you'll be convinced:

http://911debunker.livejournal.com/

http://www.911myths.com/

http://calan8.livejournal.com/

http://www.debunking911.com/

http://www.debunk911myths.org/

http://thedoc911.blogspot.com/

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm

http://internetdetectives.biz/case/loose-change

http://tinyurl.com/epp82

http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/

http://www.jod911.com/

http://osamadiditgetalife.blogspot.com/

http://www.threegroup.net/personal/adam/Opening.html

http://www.sawyerhome.net/whatilearned.html

http://antitruther.blogspot.com/

Happy reading! Spread the truth!

 

[Jazzz]

So the Loose Change crew are either useful and uninformed crass idiots or holocaust deniers - no other options. Denunciation of film, now, please.

No - enough guilt by association. I haven't read anything anti-semitic on AFP, and there is certainly there is nothing anti-semitic on Loose Change. Guilt by association is the kind of snide attack beloved of fascists. The rooting out of anyone, anwhere that has the slightest connection with ultimately dodgy and pinning the label on them is just like the rooting out of the Jews. You and pk love it. I don't go for it. I'll let people speak for themselves and go by what they say. When they say something dodgy then I'll discard them. Until then I won't.

 

[laptop]

No - enough guilt by association. I haven't read anything anti-semitic on AFP

Now you're missing the point in such a crass manner it must be deliberate.

[PATIENCE mode="exaggerated"]

AFP and BarnesR are the same organisation.

They put the most anti-semitic shite on one URL (but see #2587).

They put other shite on another.

Anyone who cites them as a source is giving credence to the one organisation.

Loose Change does this.

Therefore, either the Loose Change crew are so stupid and their research is so poor that their output needs binned, or they know what they are doing and are complicit. Stupid and therefore utterly credibility-free, or evil. No other options.

[/PATIENCE]

Guilt by association is the kind of snide attack beloved of fascists.

I invoke Godwin's Law. You've lost it.

 

[Jazzz]

I have no further time for this. If you can find something anti-semitic on Loose Change, then by all means make a case that way. But that's the only way.

 

[pk]

No - enough guilt by association. I haven't read anything anti-semitic on AFP, and there is certainly there is nothing anti-semitic on Loose Change. Guilt by association is the kind of snide attack beloved of fascists. The rooting out of anyone, anwhere that has the slightest connection with ultimately dodgy and pinning the label on them is just like the rooting out of the Jews. You and pk love it. I don't go for it. I'll let people speak for themselves and go by what they say. When they say something dodgy then I'll discard them. Until then I won't.

Loose Change was FUNDED by the Barnes Group, a known anti-semitic organisation, WHICH IS THE SAME COMPANY as American Free Press!!


Guilt by association???

WTF?

It's YOUR truthseeker website that you're making t-shirts for that are promoting holocaust denial theories - yet you say and do nothing about it - and now you say you let people speak for themselves and go by what they say!!

What would it take for you to understand the basic concept of neo-nazi propaganda?

You really are gullible beyond belief, Jazzz, it's pitiful that you set yourself up as some kind of authority on this issue when you clearly know nothing about the issues.

Most of your startling claims originate from AFP/Barnes Review - maybe you just realised that and you're backtracking, because now you'd have to admit defeat on almost all of your stupid fantasies, one by one, such as the molten pools of steel (AFP lies) and plenty of other wackjob ideas.

Why don't you grow some bollocks and admit you were wrong, and then do something about the holocaust denying cunts on your truthseeker site - before someone else does.

 

[pk]

I have no further time for this. If you can find something anti-semitic on Loose Change, then by all means make a case that way. But that's the only way.

How about the ENTIRE FILM'S PREMISE being constructed from LIES invented by the AFP/Barnes Review?

Run away from the truth as ever, by all means, most here are used to you doing that.

Sleep on it, Jazzz - any sane man would draw the simple conclusion that it's just some young dumb filmmaker with a fantasy idea to invent a fake history behind 9/11, and AFP picked it up and paid him to finish it because it suits their neo-nazi agenda and draws gullible people like you into reading their shite.

That's how propaganda works.

Loose Change cited AFP as a source so that the casual viewer would believe it was the Agence France Presse, not some redneck racist nazi-boys.

I'm telling you this for your own good - pretty soon people are going to go after these conspiracy nuts with cameras of their own, and do their own film, so you'd better decide what you believe and stick to it.

 

[laptop]

I haven't read anything anti-semitic on AFP

Then you've not been looking - or you've been looking the other way - or your definition of "anti-semitic" somehow excludes "hating Jews".

CONTROLLED PRESS CONCEALS CHERTOFF'S ISRAELI ROOTS
By Christopher Bollyn
Exclusive to American Free Press

Michael Chertoff, the new head of the Department of Homeland Security, was approved in a 98-0 vote in the U.S. Senate without the question of his Israeli roots and nationality being raised.

On February 15, 2005, Michael Chertoff, an apparent dual national with Israeli roots, was sworn in as the second Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The new "homeland security czar," who oversees the U.S. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services, seems to be hiding his own dual-national status all with the cooperation of the controlled press.

Quoted at http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/is-jim-fetzer-nazi-or-just-stupid_15.html

If you fail to recognise the underlined phrase for what it is, you are either incredibly stupid or... er, there isn't another option.

 

[pk]

Well, I think Jazzz's admission (finally!) that AFP are in fact just a front for anti-semites is a good start.

One by one the theories and "journos" he relies upon for his "facts" can be discredited.

 

[Jazzz]

Loose Change was FUNDED by the Barnes Group, a known anti-semitic organisation, WHICH IS THE SAME COMPANY as American Free Press!!

Well, then they funded a film made by people who are clearly NOT anti-semitic and produced a film with no anti-semitism. Good for them.

It's YOUR truthseeker website that you're making t-shirts for that are promoting holocaust denial theories - yet you say and do nothing about it - and now you say you let people speak for themselves and go by what they say!!

It's not 'my' truthseeker website - it's open to anyone. I've probably made all of 30-odd posts on it. It may have some isolated posters who have addressed holocaust revisionism. Once you have a discussion area based on the fact that goverments can lie through their teeth and whole populations can be misled, then you will get all kinds of stuff. I'm against censorship and allowing anything to be questioned. That includes WWII. Censorship is the primary weapon of the fascist. The way to ensure nothing like it happens again is to be vigilant about it and follow Voltaire 'I abhor what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it'. Discrediting the whole British 9/11 Truth Movement because it's so far had a no-censorship policy and there's one thread about the holocaust on its forum is ridiculous, sorry.

Most of your startling claims originate from AFP/Barnes Review - maybe you just realised that and you're backtracking, because now you'd have to admit defeat on almost all of your stupid fantasies, one by one, such as the molten pools of steel (AFP lies) and plenty of other wackjob ideas.

Not at all. And you're not paying attention.

 

[pk]

Loose Change is a clever film, let's be clear about that.

The sly and cynical way it inserts "facts" with an air of authority without providing sources, or even worse, providing AFP as a source, relentlessly flashing images and soundbites, repeating phrases out of context, would make any casual viewer convinced at first viewing.

Even I was taken in by some of it when I watched it, though my anger toward the Bush administration clouded a lot of my judgement at the time.

But on re-watching the film, it can be broken apart quite easily once you realise it's basically lies dressed up as fact.

Clever editing, grainy inconclusive footage, and hyperbole, do not a credible documentary make.

 

[pk]

you're not paying attention.

You are a disgrace to the Jewish population to let that holocaust denial shit slide unchallenged, but that is because I suspect you are a coward.

As for your Google video - what is that about?

Don't just link to a video just because you don't have the ability to counter my argument.

You're the one not paying attention - you said you'd never heard of the Barnes Review yet you've been supposedly researching this issue for six years.

This is basic stuff Jazzz.
I would never, ever employ you as a researcher, and I've employed a few.

 

[Dhimmi]

I've only vaguely followed this thread and the rest of the conspriracy "industry", and I must admit I found them just a little misguided verging on the distasteful but more harmlessly laughable than anything else.
BUT to hear about their connections, including a link with that great big shit David Duke I totally loathe them now. I'm no fan of neo-nazis and especially hate it when people's suffering is exploited for political gain. Combined this makes these bastards unforgivable.
Thanks to PK and Laptop for not only knowing all this, but enlightening me as to the true state of affairs.

 

[Jazzz]

It has its faults for sure, I'll say that. I'm not going to say to anyone 'consult Loose Change' for any definitive analysis. But it's slick and there is some good stuff in there. A pretty good effort for three kids and a laptop. Better than I could do, anyway.

 

[Jazzz]

I would never, ever employ you as a researcher, and I've employed a few.

You think I'd want to work for you?

 

[laptop]

Well, then they funded a film made by people who are clearly NOT anti-semitic

So you're going for the "stupid" option?

Because their promotion of "AFP" means they're either anti-semitic or stupid.

 

[Jazzz]

You are a disgrace to the Jewish population to let that holocaust denial shit slide unchallenged, but that is because I suspect you are a coward.

As for your Google video - what is that about?

Don't just link to a video just because you don't have the ability to counter my argument.

The video linked to perfectly counters your argument. You implied that the molten steel article on AFP was nonsense. That article quoted Mark Loizeaux as saying there were pools of molten steel in the basements. Well, if you doubt that watch the video and say if you doubt that quote.

 

[pk]

I didn't personally see molten steel at the World Trade Center site. It was reported to me by contractors we had been working with. Molten steel was encountered primarily during excavation of debris around the South Tower when large hydraulic excavators were digging trenches 2 to 4 meters deep into the compacted/burning debris pile. There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators. I'm not sure where you can get a copy.

Sorry I cannot provide personal confirmation.

Regards,
==========================

Mark Loizeaux, President
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION, INC.
2737 Merryman's Mill Road
Phoenix, Maryland USA 21131
Tel: 1-410-667-6610
Fax: 1-410-667-6624
www.controlled-demolition.com

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.alien.visitors/msg/dfef90067070254e?dmode=source

It was aluminium, in my opinion, which melts at half the temperature of steel. The fires raged for days, weeks even, more than enough time to create molten pools of aluminium.

The only source for the steel quote is - you guessed it - AFP!

 

[Jazzz]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.alien.visitors/msg/dfef90067070254e?dmode=source

It was aluminium, in my opinion, which melts at half the temperature of steel. The fires raged for days, weeks even, more than enough time to create molten pools of aluminium.

The only source for the steel quote is - you guessed it - AFP!

Well you just provided another yourself, ta.

 

[pk]

Here Jazzz - you read this and then we'll talk about molten steel.

http://911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html

It's a myth, eagerly snapped up by the anti-semites and liars at AFP, and then in turn by people like you who are so desperate to believe the conspiracy theories that you reject common sense and basic science and even the most rudimentary research.

 

[laptop]

The only source for the steel quote is - you guessed it - AFP!

So the only motive for posting the video link was to send us away for a few minutes to give Jazzzzz time to make some shit up?

Whereas text, we can take in and debunk in seconds.

 

[pk]

Well you just provided another yourself, ta.

What?? I just provided evidence to refute your claim that Loizeaux had seen molten steel - he hadn't.

He says his contractors did - but did they analyse the metal?

This is hearsay, reported as fact, just like Loose Change.

You show a very weak grasp on the concept of propaganda and news reporting, I'm not sure you should be trying to defend yourself anymore Jazzz.

You've just had your beliefs smashed into a thousand pieces if you concede that AFP is basically an anti-semitic propaganda machine, which you did earlier.

 

[Jazzz]

I doubt you even had time to read that before you posted it. Molten steel was reported - you don't dispute that. That's all the AFP article said (well okay, maybe it said Tully had seen them himself, I can't remember but it hardly matters).

I've posted about this earlier in the thread, with one quote from someone that said that the bottom of the steel H-section were dripping when being excavated. That would appear to prove the question.

Of course, NIST didn't seem to be keen to even acknowledge the molten metal, far less test to see what it was. I wonder why that was? It couldn't be because their investigation was a sham?

Anyway, bedtime.

 

[pk]

So the only motive for posting the video link was to send us away for a few minutes to give Jazzzzz time to make some shit up?

Whereas text, we can take in and debunk in seconds.

Yup - it's like "go away and watch this propaganda video for ten minutes whilst I prepare yet more cut and pastes from anti-semitic sources".

 

[laptop]

Anyway, bedtime.

Concedes defeat.

Prime source for current favourite propaganda vehicle turns out to be bonkers anti-semitic corporation. Ooops.

 

[pk]

From the link I provided, sorry about the c&p but it seems Jazzz in unable to click a link that would throw serious doubt on his "molten steel" claims - and that's just one example of an AFP myth that can be taken apart and exposed as a lie.

We recently discovered another pointer to the use of “molten steel”, too. A message on the LibertyPost forum referred to a now defunct site called WTCGodsHouse.com, where a WTC construction worker published a potentially relevant photo ( http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=30926 ). Could this be true? The site is dead, but there’s a copy in the WayBack machine, and the front page has this guys credentials:

My name is Frank Silecchia. I am one of the many WTC Ground Zero workers who was devastated by what I saw and encountered after the Twin Towers collasped.
http://web.archive.org/web/20020608142217/http://www.wtcgodshouse.com/

Proceed to the photos section ( http://web.archive.org/web/20020609005905/www.wtcgodshouse.com/photos.html ) and you’ll find something captioned “this is a picture of Tower #1 ..2 months later, molten steel”. Which looks like this.

Now maybe it’s just us, but we have some problems with that.

First, there’s no proof here other than the caption of when and where this was taken.

Second, whatever’s glowing red here clearly isn’t isn’t “molten” in the sense of “melted”.There may possibly be something dripping off one end, but we don’t know what that is.

Third, there seems an odd lack of conduction amongst the materials being picked up. We can see that the excavator has picked up a considerable amount of nearby material that presumably was very close to the same heat source, and it looks like glowing metal, but it’s completely black. There’s no orange -- bright red -- dull red transition across the materials, it’s just a straight orange to black. Steel isn’t a good conductor of heat, it’s true, but is that enough to explain the photo?

And fourth, we know there were underground fires at the site for some time. How hot could they get? Depends on the materials and the supply of oxygen, but in some cases the temperatures can be surprisingly high.

 

[kyser_soze]

extraordinarily prejudiced atmosphere here on urban75

No no; prejudice means to 'pre-judge' - you've got plenty of form jazz.

Anyhoo, given that we're back on the 'molten metal' debate...there's a few paragraphs on that in the Protec report, that MikeMCC linked to about 120 posts back...had a chance to look it over Jazz?

 

[Badger Kitten]

The anti-conspiracy theorists mindset is not an urban 75 speciality, or a BK crusade, Jazzz

Journalists, scientists, political writers, politicians, campaigners, physicists, and millions of people are anti-conspiracy theory

Some bulletin boards indulge posts on the subject and there are whole swathes of the internet devoted to CT stuff. However, u75 takes a firm line in order not to have a popular and intelligent site overrun with it, as far as I can tell.

And why is that?

Quite simply, conspiracy theories are paranoid bollocks. And peoeo who push them are mono-issue bores who cannot be argued with.

You will find that the vast majority of people are anti CT, if they think of them at all. Most people are unaware of them, when they do come across them they tend to be amused, repelled or simply shrug their shoulders from what I can see.

Anyone who cares about politics tends to be frustrated because of the sheer amount of wasted time and energy that goes into promoting this fruitbattery at the expense of rational dissent or doing anything useful. It is like a rationality-destroying virus, and if I was Bush, I'd be rubbing my hands in glee at the own goal.

 

[Badger Kitten]

See George Monbiot

Why do I bother with these morons? Because they are destroying the movements some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress, that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy, that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.

The obvious corollorary to the belief that the Bush administration is all-powerful is that the rest of us are completely powerless. In fact it seems to me that the purpose of the "9/11 truth movement" is to be powerless. The omnipotence of the Bush regime is the coward's fantasy, an excuse for inaction used by those who don't have the stomach to engage in real political fights.

 

[kyser_soze]

Here's the Protec Report again Jazz.

Good stuff on CD and molten metals...

 

[editor]

hadn't personally come across anything anti-semitic written on AFP, which in any case is a tiny tiny part of the 9/11 picture. .

Oh, that must make it all right then.