pk said:
Yes that is Operation Northwoods
I think it should have had a quick mention being one of the tenets of 'truth seekers', but you can't please everyone I suppose.
It was a somewhat biased documentary after all.
9/11 media happenings
- Thread starter Jazzz
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Yes that is Operation Northwoods
I think it should have had a quick mention being one of the tenets of 'truth seekers', but you can't please everyone I suppose.
It was a somewhat biased documentary after all.
Structaural
in Chatsubo
Dubversion said:
Yep. My favourite bit:
'The 9/11 conspiracy theories are a displacement activity. A displacement activity is something you do because you feel incapable of doing what you ought to do. A squirrel sees a larger squirrel stealing its horde of nuts. Instead of attacking its rival, it sinks its teeth into a tree and starts ripping it to pieces. Faced with the mountainous challenge of the real issues we must confront, the chickens in the "truth" movement focus instead on a fairytale, knowing that nothing they do or say will count, knowing that because the perpetrators don't exist, they can't fight back. They demonstrate their courage by repeatedly bayoneting a scarecrow.'
which sums up most CTs I've come across - especially the Ickey's.
The writer of the X-files put it well as well in that BBC programme the other day. In the absence of religious myths, some of us need to turn to secular myths. Unproveable conspiracy theories seem to fill this void perfectly for some.
You did kind of fuck up your argument Jazz when you said you 'believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy and now look for evidence to support that belief' (or words to that effect, I can't be arsed going back over the thread).
Belief, or faith (for it is that) is stupid and the refuge of fools.
Kyser put it well earlier, it's kind of demeaning to the people of the Middle East that you think they couldn't plan and carry out this act without the help of a load of spooky yanks.
Northwoods was a plan formed at the highesy levels:
Page 8, section 3.
‘..focus all efforts on a specific ultimate objective which would provide adequate justification for U.S military intervention.’ In Cuba. ‘such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly un-related events to camouflage the ultimate objective…’
Page 10, section 2.
‘A series of well co-ordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanomo, to give the genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.’
These incidents, which where never in fact carried out, include:
• Capturing fake Cuban saboteurs ‘friendly’.
• Sabotaging Americas own base
• Sinking American ships and ‘conduct funerals for mock victims’.
• ‘developing a Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other areas and even Washington.’ Page 11 Section 4.
Page 8, section 3.
‘..focus all efforts on a specific ultimate objective which would provide adequate justification for U.S military intervention.’ In Cuba. ‘such a plan would enable a logical build-up of incidents to be combined with other seemingly un-related events to camouflage the ultimate objective…’
Page 10, section 2.
‘A series of well co-ordinated incidents will be planned to take place in and around Guantanomo, to give the genuine appearance of being done by hostile Cuban forces.’
These incidents, which where never in fact carried out, include:
• Capturing fake Cuban saboteurs ‘friendly’.
• Sabotaging Americas own base
• Sinking American ships and ‘conduct funerals for mock victims’.
• ‘developing a Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other areas and even Washington.’ Page 11 Section 4.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Northwoods was a strategy paper; yes it shows that the thinking exists in the USM to argue that a false flag op could be used to create an invasionary pretext. But then if you look through Pentagon and CIA documentation from any period you can find bizarre and crazy shit - viz the research $$$s given to that guy who wanted to train soldiers to blow up goats with their minds (absolutely true).
It's worth remembering that the DOD and the Pentagon are fucking HUGE organisations that employ lots of people to sit around and think up nothing but this kind of stuff - scenario planning, wargaming etc are all part of it and some of it gets used, some of it gets filed away until some green-inker comes along, finds it and leaks it to the press and the Pentagon spokeshead probably has to stifle their laughter as lots of concerned journalists grill them on a paper written by some half crazed General who was on staff until he got his pension that details the use of bat guano as a weapon of war...
Just because there's a plan to do something does not mean that it's acted upon...
It's worth remembering that the DOD and the Pentagon are fucking HUGE organisations that employ lots of people to sit around and think up nothing but this kind of stuff - scenario planning, wargaming etc are all part of it and some of it gets used, some of it gets filed away until some green-inker comes along, finds it and leaks it to the press and the Pentagon spokeshead probably has to stifle their laughter as lots of concerned journalists grill them on a paper written by some half crazed General who was on staff until he got his pension that details the use of bat guano as a weapon of war...
Just because there's a plan to do something does not mean that it's acted upon...
editor said:
editor said:
The CT'ers say that 9/11 was a false flag operation, planned by USG. They attacked their own citizens, to provide a justification to invade Afghanistan.
Operation Northwoods and the other examples of ACTUAL false flag attacks (post 2515), are examples that USG / CIA have done this enough times in the past, hence fuelling the belief that fuels a lot of the rubbish theories
editor
hiraethified
But without a single shred of credible evidence or any examples of the USG mass murdering its own citizens and attacking vast chunks of its major cities in 'false flag' operations, what (didn't) happen in Operation Northwoods remains a total irrelevance.EddyBlack said:
The fact that they're having to dig up non-events from nearly half a century ago speaks volumes of the paucity of the 'argument.'
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
EddyBlack said:
The ISI also has ties with MI6, the GRS and the French Secret Service, as well as being a known conduit for Saudi contributions to the fight against the Russian occupancy. The CIA, since the Russians moved out, had been internally critical of the ISI because it was stuffed with militant sympathisers who acted as an agency within an agency - some observers have argued that the ISI was/is even more out of the control of it's nominal government masters than the CIA in the 60s and early 70s.
Your main problem is that you are applying things like logical thinking and a degree of rational motivation to espionage activity - the reason that the ISI is still used as an ally is because it's a necessary adjunct to the cooperation with Pakistan (and it probably still comes up with the goods intel wise); plus the Afghan war gave Rummy a chance to test run a lot of his new toys and ideas about warfare (use of UAVs for example) AND there was a much clearer moral and legal case - 9/11 was masterminded by a group/s based in Afghanistan and it was a logical response to invade in order to strike back at them.
As to why more hasn't been made of it...who knows? Why isn't more made of Saudi ties to Islamic militant groups? Why isn't more discussed of how Syria and Iran tacitly and quietly allow training camps in their borders (much the same way as the US allowed Cuban 'forces' to train before Pigs).
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
EddyBlack said:
And? The CIA tried to kill Castro with an exploding cigar. It doesn't proove anything, least of all that a US administration would murder it's own citizens to advance a course of action that it already had a plan to advance anyway.
It is NOT a minor claim to suggest that the USG was directly involved in this way, and it's part of the bullshit smokescreen that keeps people off the main target.
kyser_soze said:
Well they heads of the armed forces wern't shy abou proposing it to the White House.
You don't think USS LIberty is interesting?
I stand by my point that past governments were well capable of attacking and killing its own citizens for strategic aims in the past.
This is funamental to understanding the belief that fuels the CTs.
Badger Kitten
oof
Jazzz, I can't be arsed to argue with you, you have a blind faith that defies reason and factual analysis.
I will say one thing only as public record: the conspiraloons came after me. They posted on my blog, they sent me emails, they wrote crap about me all over the internet, and I went over there sionce they were speculating on who I am and what I believe, to politely tell them who I am and what I believe. The insuilts and bollocks thrown at me on that thread were so bad that they eventually apologised and locked the thread.
They are the ones lying about me and harassing me. They fucking started it, to take the basic position. I wish to God I had never found out about such people
That they have chosen to spin this the other way is typical of their mendacious fantasies.
I will say one thing only as public record: the conspiraloons came after me. They posted on my blog, they sent me emails, they wrote crap about me all over the internet, and I went over there sionce they were speculating on who I am and what I believe, to politely tell them who I am and what I believe. The insuilts and bollocks thrown at me on that thread were so bad that they eventually apologised and locked the thread.
They are the ones lying about me and harassing me. They fucking started it, to take the basic position. I wish to God I had never found out about such people
That they have chosen to spin this the other way is typical of their mendacious fantasies.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
EddyBlack said:
I had a quick look at the Gladio stuff and think that's far more interesting.
The Liberty stuff...wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the Israeli's had done that, especially if they felt that the presence of a spy ship might compromise their own intel operations (and possibly reveal that they had nukes at the time to the US)...again tho, military target and not the US...
The USS Liberty website shows (to me) that the Government at that time was willing to cover up an incident created by another country in order to keep relationship steady. I caused a lot of upset for a large number of senior member of the administration. Yet now we are expected to believe that an incident with casualties two orders of magnitude greater and instigated by the government itself occured without a whisper of protest?EddyBlack said:
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I see EBs point - he's basically saying that because vaguely similar things have happened in the past (e.g. the USM allowing their troops to be killed by the Israeli's then hushing it up) the CTers take that to mean that they are happening NOW and that 9/11 is the prime example of this.
That we're talking about utterly different geopolitical situations is obviously of little relevance, the fact that these things could have happened (in the case of Northwoods) and did (in the case of USS Liberty) means that they are definitely happening now.
Altho I also suspect EB is tacitly hinting that he agrees with that appraisal...
That we're talking about utterly different geopolitical situations is obviously of little relevance, the fact that these things could have happened (in the case of Northwoods) and did (in the case of USS Liberty) means that they are definitely happening now.
Altho I also suspect EB is tacitly hinting that he agrees with that appraisal...
editor said:
Well the documentary was about 911 conspiracy theories, Just thought it would have been worth mentioning that these past examples fuel the belief of the CT'ers that the USG carried it out as a pretext for war.
Rather than for example spending abouth ten minute talking to the X-files bloke about how Ct'ers just need something to believe in/ pop psycology opinions
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
EddyBlack said:
Because there is no freaking truth to it whatsoever. NO. PROOF. The story was released in the days after 911 and appeared in the Indian Times. It quoted an anonymous source in the Indian Security Services (an organisation with no love for the ISI). There is nothing. NOTHING. To substantiate it.
The story has repeated again and again, but only ever quoting the times of India and never offering further proof!
Theres no evidence the US liberty was attacked intentially.
This isn't an example of a staged attack, this is an example of the US government using an event as a pretext to invade.
Absolutely no evidence Gladio units existed.
Can someone tell me what a plan, that was rejected by the President, forty years ago, and the person who came up with fired is proof that the US government regularly engaged in false flag bollocks?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Sorry, it wasn't clear that was meant to be read with a heavy does of sarcasm, and should have had 'according to the CTers' as an end.
As I said earlier in the thread, if the USG has really wanted to do this properly they'd have used a nuke not a couple of fucking planes. It would have utterly scared the shit out of the planet - I mean come on, hijacking 2 planes and flying them into buildings is scary and visual, but using a nuke...it's what I'd have done anyway. You think about how much the US could have pushed the UN around over EVERYTHING.
As I said earlier in the thread, if the USG has really wanted to do this properly they'd have used a nuke not a couple of fucking planes. It would have utterly scared the shit out of the planet - I mean come on, hijacking 2 planes and flying them into buildings is scary and visual, but using a nuke...it's what I'd have done anyway. You think about how much the US could have pushed the UN around over EVERYTHING.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Just read that Monbiot article, he sums it up perfectly.
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