2004 F1 Championship

[the B]

I don't think a few small as yet unpaid performance bonuses will be given as the reason he leaves - while we all know he's not got that much talent and is using what luck he's had to make money - he won't make it a big public deal...

 

[wordie]

Still, this weekend will be an interesting meeting. I'll be interested to see how both Button and the BAR team cope with the pressure.

I'd also be interested to hear how ITV spin the story. (I'm not in the UK so my GP is not brought to me by ITV.)

I'll report back on the foreign slant....

Can't wait to see if Sato beats JB to a better place on the grid, and what happens during the race. Jenson says he's not going to be affected by the flying shit.... I don't see how that could possibly be the case.

And wouldn't it be interesting to see Trulli win this race? Sato 2nd? JPM 3rd?

 

[the B]

I wouldn't be surprised if Button's car mysteriously breaksdown during the race...

 

[g force]

I think BAR are relying on him socring points so I doubt it...unless they only want a few pionts for 6th position!

Williams nose - the old one:

The new one:

 

[wordie]

That looks a lot better..... let's hope it works better as well!

 

[g force]

Well JPM and Ralf both complained of terrible understeer that no amount of set-up chnages could really fix, so the nose must have been to blame.

I think it looks much better with the new nose - hopefully we'll see the resurgence of JPM the master racer rather than the tetchy git we've had all year.

 

[the B]

In a way, I can see BAR wanting to make 2nd in the constructors...just very unlikely to do it...though Button 61, Sato 14 does prove a point.

Is the front wing change for BMW going to make it that much faster though? They are only really racing McLaren in the constructors and their B spec car is probably the second fastest on the grid.

 

[g force]

In a straight line..I doubt it..the problem (from what i've read) has been mid-corner stability. Where Ferrari, BAR and even Renault can drive through the corner well, the Williams is very skiddy, so drivers can't get the power down.

That was pretty well demonstrated at Magny Bores in the first few corners - the car was all over the place relative to the competition. Hungary wouldn't be so much of a problem for them, but at places like Spa it will be absolutely critical.

4th looks like their best bet at the moment now McLaren have got it together...guess it's about taking points of other teams - if the FW26b can mix it with BAR and Renault it will prevent McLaren from scoring more points (well okay DC from scoring) and that might help them. OPains me to say it but they really need Ralf back for 2 GPs time or it could be beyond them.

 

[the B]

Even David Coulthard doesn't quite know what Jenson is doing by going to Williams. he was quite polite about it.

Montoya wasn't quite as polite - he was branding Button 'crazy' and then slagged off the team he's about to leave this year.

Montoya doesn't mince his words does he?

 

[g force]

I know he really pisses some people off but i love JPM - says what's on his mind. I agree with him...at BAR the team is focused on Jenson, but at Williams they already have Webber, who it is assumed will be #1 (despite Frank claimining otherwise).

Stories going around that the 'mighty' Pedro De La Rosa will be driving for Jordan next year, with Repsol being the lead sponsor (and paying for his drive) to the tune of $10m WTF! He was pretty good for Arrows 4/5 years ago but he stank at Jaguar.

Any why do Jordan need $10m.....does this mean they aren't the team being bought by the Dubai consortium Reallly there's only them and Minardi who are privately owned so it has to be one of them. Unless, they bought the outstanding Prost assets and are going it alone?

 

[wordie]

I know he really pisses some people off but i love JPM -

Yeah he's good value I reckon, although he can be quite mischievous with his comments. He's a master at head games isn't he?

Webber No 1 at Williams. I doubt it. They've always made two equal cars and Frank always says the drivers are free to race until one has no chance at the title. As it should be! Not like that red Italian team....

 

[the B]

Williams don't have a clear number 1, but it's pretty clear that they favour one driver over the other...usually the better one. So JPM at the moment.

Off-track, I think he's the sort of driver and character that suits F1. On track, I don't know...he's Eddie Irvine-esque really.

 

[g force]

B that's a bit harsh...he does make some silly errors when pushing but he also makes some great overtaking manouvers. If everyone had the same car, i think you'd only see JPM and Kimi even getting close to MS because they know how to drive on the limit.

There's a great video someone, maybe on P2P, of Montoya's pols lap in CART in Detroit...truly one the best single laps I have ever, ever seen - pure commitment.

 

[the B]

I reckon if JPM actually became a rally driver, I'd respect him a lot more...I don't doubt his raw ability to drive cars, just what he does when there are other people on the track.

My opinion kind of flows from the fact he tends to be very good at qualifying and is a confident driver (hence the bold overtaking that sometimes comes off, other times...welll).

 

[g force]

Yep it's a flaw but everyone has done it...Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Piquet....I think he has the same drive and determination to win as them and sometimes that ends in trouble.

Plenty of people disliked Senna for taking Prost out at the first turn in Japan - and it was a little 'suspect' but that was all part of the package.

My theory is that he shoots his mouth off when it's obvious he was at fault and that gets peoples backs up. Senna kept quiet, but had that glint in his eye

 

[mr_eko]

I think I agree with the B here he talks the talk but he hasn't quite walked it yet. Maybe he hasn't had the car but all those guys you mentioned did deliver world championships.

I've always wondered why dosen't Senna get more criticism for that incident with Prost in 90? Look at the (imo deserved) ish that Shumacer got when he took out Hill then tried to take out Villeneuve.

 

[the B]

Because Prost made up for it

Looks like the Ferrari have the race pace on everyone by about a second but the competitors are in for a shout on the qualifying pace.

The Renaults look lost...

I'm guessing it'll pan out in the order of Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, BAR, Renault, Toyota, rest...come the race.

 

[the B]

More importantly - of all the races (with exception to Monaco maybe) it's predicted to be a wet qualifying and dry race...prepare for more antics in Qualifying 1 perhaps?

 

[wordie]

I've always wondered why dosen't Senna get more criticism for that incident with Prost in 90? Look at the (imo deserved) ish that Shumacer got when he took out Hill then tried to take out Villeneuve.

Schumacher was in a position to win the championship in both cases. He pulled it off as well in Adelaide, but lost out against JV. They were deliberate actions designed to deny his nearest rival beating him to the championship.

Senna was getting revenge on Prost, who he considered his greatest danger on the track, for a manouver that Prost pulled on him in a previous season when they were both at McLaren. And Senna admitted it too! The circumstances (and the characters) were substantially different.

And besides, Senna did get a lot of shit at the time, but over and above those incidents, Senna was simply light years ahead of Schumacher in terms of character, personality and love for the sport. It wasn't about the money for Ayrton, it was about the glory of the sport and his all pervading self confidence in his own ability, against extremely tough, technical and human competition.

IMO if Ferrari were not as dominant, there were fewer driver aids in the cars, no tyre war, and a few more Prosts' or Sennas' driving today, MS wouldn't have strolled to as many championships as he has. But we'll never really know will we?

I don't want to reduce Schumacher's achievements, they are amazing by any measure, but (again IMO) they have not been achieved within similar contexts to those of a Prost or a Senna. The playing field was considerably more level then, than now. (That's not a criticism of either Ferrari or Schumacher, but a fact of life.)

However, that was ever the way in F1. I think it took more balls for Fangio to win a Championship in his day, than it takes MS to win one today. There's just no possible way to compare really, but I do think Schumacher's cynical moves on Hill and JV marked a boundary of sportsmanship that had never really been crossed before.... even by Senna!

 

[wordie]

I'm guessing it'll pan out in the order of Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, BAR, Renault, Toyota, rest...come the race.

Yeah, that looks about right assuming we get a dry quali.... It will be fascinating to see what happens if the first part of final quali is dry and the 2nd part wet.....

 

[the B]

It's not Schumacher drove into Hill at Adelaide...it's a replay that's been seen over and over and over. He shut the door when he tried to overtake and Hill was really going for it.

Only in Britain is there this 'everyday' sense that Hill got 'cheated' out of it.

He definately did it deliberately at JV.

Schumacher is just racing for the money? These days, that's pretty hard to justify - his wages are peanuts compared to his accumulated wealth and he puts his life on the line regularly anyway despite wife and kids? He's done the records, he's got loads of money - he could only really be doing this for love of racing.

Ferrari have only really been so dominant in two seasons, 2002 and 2004. Not a huge number of them...people might argue that winning the constructors solidly since 1999 means something else. I would argue that David Coulthard has been at McLaren too long...I think the playing field could be more level none the less.

 

[wordie]

It's not Schumacher drove into Hill at Adelaide...it's a replay that's been seen over and over and over. He shut the door when he tried to overtake and Hill was really going for it.

Only in Britain is there this 'everyday' sense that Hill got 'cheated' out of it.

He definately did it deliberately at JV.

Well it's blood under the bridge now... It may well be the case that he shut the door on Hill, but I think that's a questionable interpretation since he'd already run off the track and almost certainly damaged his suspension, making a door shutting manouver with effectively a crippled car.... and MS would have been well aware of that, whilst Hill was not.

I would have given him the benefit of the doubt, had he not tried exactly the same thing with JV in Barcelona. Certainly the Williams team were convinced that MS had been er, unsportsmanlike in Adelaide!

That said, as I remember the race, Hill should really have waited until after the corner to get past the crippled Schumacher, then he would have been world champ instead of MS, but of course, he hadn't seen MS hit the wall, and couldn't know that he was racing against a damaged car... so he went for it.

It will no doubt remain a point of discussion for years to come, with those that believe MS did the dirty and others believing it to have been a racing accident. I happen to be of the first school of thought.

It doesn't diminish Schumachers achievements since then, but at the time it left a nasty aftertaste.

I agree with you that he's probably not doing it for the money any more, but then I don't think money was Senna's motivation either.

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

I don't want to reduce Schumacher's achievements, they are amazing by any measure, but (again IMO) they have not been achieved within similar contexts to those of a Prost or a Senna. The playing field was considerably more level then, than now. (That's not a criticism of either Ferrari or Schumacher, but a fact of life.)

But there was one season where McLaren won 15 out of 16 races. Not really level then is it? The only difference is that Senna and Prost were on an even keel whereas Schummi is streets ahead of Barrichello and indeed everyone else.

Plus you have to remember that Schumacher left Benetton after winning two championships in a row to go to Ferrari who were, lets be honest, shit.

 

[wordie]

But there was one season where McLaren won 15 out of 16 races. Not really level then is it? The only difference is that Senna and Prost were on an even keel whereas Schummi is streets ahead of Barrichello and indeed everyone else.

Well that's precisely the point isn't it? When Prost and Senna won 15 from 16 races for McLaren, they were always racing each other. Similar to the Mansell/Piquet Williams team which simply obliterated the entire (90/91?) season. They were drivers of equal ability left to race each other in equal cars....

If Schumacher had ever allowed a Mika or equivalent to race against him in a team not built around him, I wonder what the results would have been. Almost certainly not what we have seen over the last few years. But that's the way Ferrari have built their team, unlike such as McLaren or Williams who have a different, (more pure IMO) philosophy towards racing.

It's just a different way of going racing to the "garageistes" from the UK, but I don't think it serves the sport in any positive way.

The fact that Ferrari was shit when MS went there and has built the team around him has helped him win as much as he has, with the occasional small crumbs being handed out to his team mates who have never either been allowed to race against him, or have never had equal equipment and development resources, or indeed, have rarely been of the same quality. (Irvine was simply never in the same league as Schumacher! And even after MS broke his leg, Ferrari contrived to stop Irvine winning the championship!)

If MS wants something on his car that he feels will make him quicker, I doubt Rubens would be allowed to challenge that development if it made him slower...

But it's a question of era. And we'll never know the real truth about how good Schumi is when put in an equal car, against a driver of equal talent, because he's never allowed it to happen. Unlike Senna or Prost.

And that to my mind diminishes his achievements in comparison with other champions.

 

[wordie]

Sato third.......

Button fourth..... on the dirty side of the grid.

I can see the first corner tomorrow:

Schumacher, Alonso, Sato, Barrichello, Button, .... the rest!

What the hell happened to the new, highly competitive McLarens? Tyres excuses don't really cut it at this level!

 

[Ich bin ein Mod]

The worst thing Ferrari have ever done imo was to stop Irvine getting the championship. To come out with only three tyres for a pit stop is so obvious it's obscene.

 

[mr_eko]

If MS wants something on his car that he feels will make him quicker, I doubt Rubens would be allowed to challenge that development if it made him slower...

But it's a question of era. And we'll never know the real truth about how good Schumi is when put in an equal car, against a driver of equal talent, because he's never allowed it to happen. Unlike Senna or Prost.

And that to my mind diminishes his achievements in comparison with other champions.

According this article Senna wasn't above playing his own tricks and stopping Prost getting parts on his car or being over aggresive on the track. I think Scummacer and Senna both have/had a really crazy will to win that sometimes boils over.

 

[wordie]

According this article Senna wasn't above playing his own tricks and stopping Prost getting parts on his car or being over aggresive on the track. I think Scummacer and Senna both have/had a really crazy will to win that sometimes boils over.

Oh sure, Senna was a complete bastard when it came to competitors. When he was at Lotus he insisted that Derek Warwick didn't get the 2nd seat because he didn't want the competition, and his wish was granted. But McLaren was a different matter.

Prost was the incumbent No 1 driver when Senna arrived, and even though there was no love lost between them, Ron made sure they had equal cars and raced accordingly. And it cost them championships too!

But then Mansell always complained that Prost ruined his drive at Ferrari, by being a political animal. And let's not forget that Prost almost did with Ferrari what Schumacher has done in recent years, but was sacked after criticising the car. And Enzo was still alive then...

I think it's the nature of all the brilliant drivers to try to create the ideal situation for themselves within a team.

The difference is how the team reacts to that driver pressure. Williams have always made it clear that drivers are merely tools and that the constructors is the important thing for them. McLaren have always gone down a similar path, albeit a much more marketing savvy version of the same philosophy. And now they, like Williams are bound up into the lethargic and difficult to manage corporate structures of Daimler-Chrysler and BMW respectively, while Ferrari have maintained their independence from Fiat and have Montezemolo as the Ferrari figurehead....

But the fact remains, Schumacher has never allowed an equal driver to be alongside him in an equal car, and that continues to be the reason he's won as much as he has.

(I emphasise again, this IS NOT intended as a criticism of Schumacher or Ferrari. I admire the dedication and work ethic that enables such dominance of what was once truly a sport but is now a simply marketing exercise, masquerading as sport.

Given the choice though, I'd prefer to have dinner with JPM, or Webber, or Mika than with Michael – and I realise I may be doing him a dis-service by saying that, but I rate them as more valuable to the sport of F1 racing, than MS who I consider a freak of nature and not especially good for the sport.)

 

[wordie]

As you can see I can bore for England on what I think is wrong with F1, but essentially it has always changed over the years and things won't stop changing because I prefer one driver over another.....

I am more interested in tomorrow's race where I reckon Button will fall by the way side, Sato will end up 3rd on the podium, .....

 

[the B]

I think the tyres thing does cut it, McLaren were way off it and shouldn't have been that far off it...their car is better than that.

The race today was boring as fuck

Almost nothing happened through the whole of it once the start had happened.

Anyway, 7 consecutive wins, 6th consecutive constructors championship