2004 F1 Championship

[Ich bin ein Mod]

When traction control was illegal but everyone was probably using it anyway because it was hard to prove they were using it...the cars weren't drifting or sliding around because it's not the fastest way to get the cars around a circuit...so it'll never happen.

There's another arguement for driver aids, they act as a leveller slightly. So without them Schummi would probably be further from the chasing pack, who'd be further from the Jordan drivers of the world who'd be further from the Minardi drivers

 

[the B]

There's another arguement for driver aids, they act as a leveller slightly. So without them Schummi would probably be further from the chasing pack, who'd be further from the Jordan drivers of the world who'd be further from the Minardi drivers

There's little/no evidence for that.

What there is would be a comparison between old grids and new where the difference between pole and the back would be as much as say 7 seconds or so...but those were the turbo days...

And I reckon most drivers can 'turn it on' for one lap during qualifying - the difference would be there during the races - but because of 'tactical' racing...like how Schumacher slows at the end to nurse his car over the line safely rather than risk it all setting fast laps means it's hard to judge the differences.

 

[damaged goods]

As for manual gearboxes - it'll never happen...Formula 1 is more than just a challenge for drivers, it's also about the people who make the cars and all.

Manual gearboxes are one of many proposed changes to take place for the 2008 season, off course this proposal could well be blown out of the water. You say F1 is more than just a challenge for the drivers, it's also about the constructors....would it not be a challenge to the constructors to have to implement manual transmission into their cars?

Talking of driver aids, wasn't traction control introduced by teams at the same time as grooved tyres became an FIA regulation, in order to compensate for the lost grip?

And will Ron Dennis sell Mclaren to DaimlerChrysler?......

.....the rumours continue!

 

[kyser_soze]

would it not be a challenge to the constructors to have to implement manual transmission into their cars?

No it woudn't - given that one of the teams is experimenting with a ceramic gearbox switching from semi-auto to manual wouldn't be that hard.

This whole technology argument is bollock - F1 is supposed to be about pushing men, machines and materials to the absolute limit - the fact that limit is now on a par with space exploration when it comes to materials and technologies is an inevitable result of the sport pushing itself further and further.

I was having a row with someone in the pub about this last week - they're one of those 'The drivers don't drive, it's all the pit crews and the car technology' (we were having a discussion about Schuey at the time) types who seem to think F1's been going downhill since they allowed disc brakes in the cars...

I think the most interesting thing about this is when (I think) Niki Lauder took one of the 02/03 Ferraris round a track having spent time saying 'It's all too easy these days' he spun the car 3 times in half a lap and got out saying it was too difficult.

As for levelling the field...Schuey already won one F1 title with a supposed 2nd strand team years ago...nah, it's simply bitching because at the moment, Ferrari have the best overall package that has enough strength-in-depth to be able to compensate for areas where opposing teams do have an advantage.

 

[the B]

Talking of driver aids, wasn't traction control introduced by teams at the same time as grooved tyres became an FIA regulation, in order to compensate for the lost grip?

Maybe that was the cover story but the reality was, many teams were allegedly using it already and it was impossible to be sure whether they were or not.

So, may as well legalise it and level the playing field...

Bit like drugs and athletes maybe...

 

[damaged goods]

F1 is supposed to be about pushing men, machines and materials to the absolute limit

But is F1 really pushing the drivers to the absolute limit?

Drivers aids are there to assist the drivers by using technology. So maybe the machines and materials are being pushed, but take these away or even just reduce them a little and then the drivers true level of talent would be exposed. Without any technological assistance, would we see the same drivers that we have at present?

I'm not questioning the skills or sheer levels of fitness required to drive in F1 these days but it is plain to see that technology has a major role to play in deciding who ends up where on the grid.

Niki Lauder took one of the 02/03 Ferraris round a track having spent time saying 'It's all too easy these days' he spun the car 3 times in half a lap and got out saying it was too difficult.

hehe, this reminds me of Nigel Mansell at the Regent Street parade when he drove the Jordan..... stalling it on the tight corner outside Liberty's..... couldn't help but cheer I think he thought it would be like riding a bike!

 

[the B]

The drivers want to win, they push themselves to the absolute limit. Simple as that.

 

[kyser_soze]

But is F1 really pushing the drivers to the absolute limit?

That IS an interesting point - depends what you would consider the limit.

Lets take a driver aid such as ABS. Been around years now, but it has enabled F1 (and road cars) to push decellrative speeds to the limit. Remember the old highway code back page with the thinking/stopping distances? F1 now makes those numbers look ridiculous. 190-30 mph in what, 50M? 7g decceleration, 6gs through corners...and all this between 50 and 70 times over a couple of hours often in blazing sunshine on exposed ground.

There is no comparison with 'old skool' drivers, and if you are talking abotu 'raw talent' it's all there to see in F3000, karting and the pre-F1 competitions, where the F1 driving pool is refreshed from. And given that these cars are completely 'primitive' in no driver aids and are all mechnically identical, I'd say that regardless of technology, you'd still see the same drivers on the grid.

And personally, I still think you'd see the same groups of drivers in the top 6 regardless.

 

[g force]

That's an interesting point abotut he talented pool and i'd argue there's a seriosu problem there too. Talent isn't really coming through!!!

Generaly safety means drivers staying at the top for longer. Sad to say but in the 60s right through to the 80s drivers died, or were sacked on an almost monthly basis. If you look at the driver turnover at even the ultra successful teams they moved around.

And then there's the lack of seats available. F3000 and F3 are great ways into F1 but now money and sponsorship is beginning to make them irrelevant. Not so long ago (well 15 years) there were 16 teams fighting to get on the grid but costs forced many of them out of F1. Yeah to Coloni, Eurobrun, Leyton House were a bit shit but it gave guys a chnace to show they could drive and let other teams see what they could do.

Now if you look at how many GPs many of the drivers have driven, even the younger guys, they have a good few under their belt.

I have nothing personally against Massa, Klien et al as they are obviously fairly talented but when a team backed by Ford, one of the biggest manufacturers FFS! takes money from Red Bull to let a driver in ahead of someone like Justin Wilson who totally and utterly destroyed the so called "next big things" in F3000, or Wirhiem who beat everyone in sight just 2 years ago then you know something is wrong.

Luizzi might be lucky and be signed by Ferrari, but that's very much the exception to the rule IMO. The talk of bringing back JV and Hakk is the same - they've had their chance - one of them retired the other burnt his bridges - let someone else in and lets see how good they are.

I only hope the new rule changes will see teams like Joest, SuperNova, and Arden join F1 to at least increase the number of seats, but it's clutching at straws.

 

[kyser_soze]

I know what you mean - but this is more a problem with the way drivers have to fund themselves than anything else.

I do agree about the costs meaning there are less teams, and increased safety means that the attrition rate isn't quite what it should be but I honestly don't think you're going to radically alter F1 unless there is a maximum spending cap placed on teams.

 

[g force]

Right it is and that's the crux of the problem - drivers face enough problems coming up through carts, F3, F3000 to worry about whether they have sufficient funds to try and get a drive in F1.

Some are lucky to have rich parents, othter aren't but it should be about the talent, ie, Wilson rather than the $ like Klien. Fucks me right off that a totally average journeyman like Verstappen can get so many drives/tests and gets linked with empty seats because he has cash when Jordan could take on Wilson or someone similar.

Jackie Stewart was on TV the toher making the exact sam point - he said that if he was young driver today he might be able to make it becuase his parents supported him, but doubted whether he'd have got into F1. Now i'm not suggesting that there's a few Schumachers out there who won't make it because of this, but there's certianly great talent that will be lost.

A spending cap won't work - teams will get round it. Having common components might but flying to far flung corners so Bernie can run fag sponsorship to boost his pension fund will negate all of that.

 

[the B]

I don't the fly away races are costing the teams that much considering they should be receiving significantly more sponsorship as a result.

In other news, Ralf Schumacher is due to do a 50km shakedown to see if he is realy fully fit and able to race. Williams may also use this as a chance to test out some aerodynamic parts, this is legal, and they may include a more conventional front wing.

 

[damaged goods]

From what I've heard, Ralf will be running with a brand new front nose to replace the 'walrus' nose in conjunction with his race fitness test.

Williams are planning to use the new nose at Hungary if testing proves successful.....likewise for Ralf!

 

[the B]

Don't think Williams have enough in the car to stop them slipping behind McLaren in the constructors championship anyway...

 

[wordie]

In other news, Ralf Schumacher is due to do a 50km shakedown to see if he is realy fully fit and able to race.

Well we already know he's not able to race. But he IS good at shutting the door while someone tries to overtake him!

I've said it before and I'll say it again; if his name was Ralf Bloggs he wouldn't be driving a dustcart, and I still can't understand why Toyota chose to sign him on a mega-million deal. They must have more money than sense.

Still, let's see what happens next year, especially as Panis has talked up the new Toy as being the dogs danglies. I'm prepared to eat humble pie if Ralf get's consistent podiums, but somehow I don't think that's going to happen.

No hiding place now Ralf!

 

[g force]

It's his final hurrah - is Gascoigne sorts the car out Ralf looks like a star, if it's shit he quits for DTM with $$$$$$ saying the team was "unprofessional" or some such bollocks.

Williams really should have admitted defeat with that nose a long time ago - it's clear the aero on the car was buggered. Thy're too far behind BAR and McLaren so 4th look like the best they can hopr for, unless Renault step up a bit.

Williams 5th...

edit: Ralf won't be racing in Hungary - he's spines not healed properly, Pizzonia will be in place, apparently. Hmmmm....only 1 points score in Hungary, and i'm guessign Renault will get 2, BAR at least 1, McLaren 2.

 

[wordie]

Williams really should have admitted defeat with that nose a long time ago - it's clear the aero on the car was buggered. Thy're too far behind BAR and McLaren so 4th look like the best they can hopr for, unless Renault step up a bit.

Williams 5th...

TBH I think BMW and Dr Strangelove (aka Thiessen) exert way to much influence over the tech boys at Williams. Tis the German way! They think they're way better than everyone else, and can't resist telling them. Often.

That has to be a disruptive factor in any team. Look at Toyota. I mean, setting up in that hotbed of F1 technology and resources called Cologne. What the f**k is that all about?

However Williams have always been the quintessential BRITISH racing team, and when they have the bottle to control the technology, (i.e. when they partnered Renault and Honda) they were very impressive world champs.

All this meddling and sniping from BMW is totally un-productive, and it wouldn't surprise me if the retained the walrus snout because the Germans thought it differentiated their car from the pack.... in marketing terms of course.

Why do you think Patrick has handed over to Sam Michael? And Frank has talked about retiring at some stage?

Or is that all too, too cynical of me?

 

[wordie]

Ralf won't be racing in Hungary -

Good!

The less I see of him and his ego, the happier both I and F1 racing will be!

 

[g force]

There's plenty of behind the scenes stuff going on for sure, but i'm not sure it's any worse now than before. BMW are very hands on, in the same way Mercedes are with McLaren but they spend a shite load of money on the engines and they aren't doing very well.

So, they get a say in what should happen, but to me, seem more vocal in their intentions - it's exactly the same deal with Honda and BAR - I guarantee they have frank discussion about what's happening but don't air them in public. That has to be down to Thiessen - it's interesting that as soon as someone who knows F1 inside out and is respected in the paddock (Berger) leaves things start to go wrong....coincidence....I don't think so!

Part of me thinks BMW would like to set up their own team, but don't have the bollocks to do for fear of their brand being muddied by Toyota-esque failures. I also think they don't have the $$$ of Toyota or even VW to do it.

 

[wordie]

That has to be down to Thiessen - it's interesting that as soon as someone who knows F1 inside out and is respected in the paddock (Berger) leaves things start to go wrong....coincidence....I don't think so!

Part of me thinks BMW would like to set up their own team, but don't have the bollocks to do for fear of their brand being muddied by Toyota-esque failures.

I think that's pretty close to the truth!

Easier to blame Williams for their failures than to have to look at yourself in the mirror!

Pity about Berger wasn't it? he always struck me as being a sane and interesting sort of guy who called a spade a spade. Obviously didn't go down too well in Munich!

 

[the B]

Ralf isn't a driver who should be in a 'top seat' though it's getting to the point where there are top seats really worth having and the rest are very good...Jaguar, Jordan and Minardi are the 'also rans'.

I'm sure he'd make a good test driver or something...

I don't buy the Williams problems starting because Berger went...this season's car would have started development well over a year ago, maybe two.

 

[g force]

You're right, but with him around i bet the dirty linen wouldn't have been aired so publicly and things would have been turned around...the guy lived and breathed F1, Thiessen to me is very much a BMW suit who looks at the financial benefits.

You can see a relationsio souring quickly, whereas before Berger had the respect of Frank and Patrick and vice versa.

 

[the B]

Zonta will replace Da Matta at Toyota for the foreseeable future - Da Matta's poor performance with the B spec car didn't help his case...

 

[g force]

Wow! Good move by Toyota I think - Zonta showed promise in the shitty BAR a few seasons back. Wonder if he's in with a shot of the second seat?

Tink Da Matta should go back to where they just turn left to rebuild his career.

 

[thelittlechef]

Button is going to Williams next year! I didn't see that one coming! I know he's been contractually close to Williams for a couple of years but I didn't think he'd leave BAR when they're on such an up...

Button and Webber, in a Williams... I know which team I'll be cheering for next year...

Now, ffor any chance of a championship - has anyone found a rule about red cars driven by Germans not being allowed on track?!?

 

[the B]

I just read that - and I think Button has made a mistake...

Williams will probably get the third driver on Friday benefit next year which will give them some edge - but I just don't think the car will be good enough...

Be interesting to see Webber up against Button, my money is on Webber...

Who will BAR get then? Coulthard

And I don't think anyone could stop Michael winning the drivers championship even if he wasn't allowed to race anymore GPs this season...

 

[wordie]

I just read that - and I think Button has made a mistake...

Williams will probably get the third driver on Friday benefit next year which will give them some edge - but I just don't think the car will be good enough...

Be interesting to see Webber up against Button, my money is on Webber....

Yeah! That came from left field didn't it, although Frank may have had a contractual finger in Button's future since he ran him a few years ago.

Webber and Button. Two very different personalities. Button seems to have flourished with the BAR team committed to him... especially with the phsyco help from Dave R, whereas Webber doesn't seem to need a lot of team love to do the job.

At Williams. About the only team that don't feel the need to pander to drivers feelings.

I'd put my money on Webber to do the business.

At the same time, I'm shocked to see Button move from BAR. I would have thought he'd see the advantages of staying. Especially with Honda fully on board and after what can only be seen as a gigantic leap in performance over the JV years.

I wonder what Dave R thinks?

And would he take Coulthard? After all he's now got one of the hottest seats on the grid available...

Talk about musical chairs!

Edited to add: Just read that BAR didn't pick up an option on Jenson, so maybe they were caught napping....

 

[g force]

I'm shocked TBH and I think Dave R - if he didn't pick up the option - has made a blunder and I think Jenson has too.

Williams could be in trouble...Webber hasn't proven himself and Jenson is only now getting his shit together. There's lots of internal stuff going on and they can't seem to decide what's going on, so IMO will lose ground. Think i'd pick Webber over Button too in a straight fight but we'll see.

I'd say BAR as well but.....who the hell is going to drive for them now? Sato and DC They need someone with a bit more experience than Taku and i'm not convinced Davidson and Sato will make a good team - plenty of repaort bills but not many points. Mebbe a chance to sign Hiedfeld or Trulli.

Trulli and Sato...wouldn't be so bad, but if they're not careful they'll start falling back down the grid again.......just as Toyota are on the up

The biggest challengers to Ferrari next season will be McLaren and Renault - the strongest driver pairings and potentially very quick cars.

 

[wordie]

Stop press!

Hakkinen and Mansell to get 2005 BAR seats!






















Only joking!

 

[the B]

Hmm, apparently, Button's agent exercised an option to leave BAR that applies because Honda aren't apparently fully committed...and for some strange reason this clause only had hours until it expired or something?

Dave Richards ain't too happy about it at all - but if Button really did want to go, it'd be pretty hard to stick with BAR and not look absolutely stupid.