2004 F1 Championship

[g force]

TBH I can't find any sympathy for Dave " grand prix" Richards...he's playing a game and prolly game JB an ultimatum...to which his response was

So now we have:

Ferrari:
MS + Rubens
Tester: Badoer, Luizzi

McLaren
Kimi + JPM - IMO the best driver combination
Tester: Wurz

Williams
Webber + Button
3rd car: Pizzonia??

Renault
Alonso + Fisi
3rd car: Montagny

BAR
Sato + ??
3rd car: Ant

Toyota
Ralf + ??
3rd car: Zonta/Briscoe

Sauber
?? + ??

Jag
?? + ??

Jordan
?? + ??

Minardi
?? +??

So, in reality there's still 2 decent drives (BAR and Toyota) maybe more up for grabs. DC, Panis, and Trulli are all in with a shout. Sauber are a decent team and might go for 2 younger drivers, Jag have to get someone with expereince to develop the car, Jordan...well, might seem like a good plan if they are being sold but no one seems to know.

I think BAR and Toyota would be wary of DC..he's not really done very much...and with Trulli still on the market his options might be limited. I'm guesing Trulli is going to end up at Toyota, so really it's BAR and Jag.

If Williams run a third car on friday, will they keep Pizzonia?

 

[wordie]

Well I quite like Dave R and I DO have a lot of sympathy for him! And I can well understand his fury at such apparently underhand methods.

Dave R has shaken up the sleeping BAR so that it's cometitive, as well as giving JB the chance to redeem himself after Bennetton/Renault where he was going nowhere.

It looks like there's going to be a bit of slanging match over the next couple of weeks. See: Button-gate swings into action.

I don't suppose it will do Jenson much good in the reputation stakes either. Especially if he gets creamed by Webber and then dumped by Williams. There's a lot at stake for him now.

I still can't work out why he's chosen BMW-Williams over BAR-Honda. I can't see Frank changing his driver care package, especially as he's now got Alan Jones part 2 on board.

Strange, strange move to my mind.

But then, what do I know?

 

[g force]

Problem is what if BAR do have a legally binding contract - BAR will be angry at Jenson, Williams won't have a driver!!

F1 is underhanded that's the way it is - guarnatee that if Jenson had crashed every race, or underperformed they'd be talking to other drivers. I agree it's an dd mvoe when Honda have said they want to continue with BAR

Dave Richards is still a dick...he's single handedly destroyed the WRC by tryign to make it like F1 - no one should be in control of the WRC licencing rights and run an F1 team. Flavio is no better and I dislike him equally.

 

[the B]

Panis is not going to get himself a decent drive next year, he's almost certainly going to retire soon.

Teams will take Trulli over Coulthard - who will soon be on his way out - and will get a seat before Panis anyway.

 

[damaged goods]

Woah! Still pretty taken aback by JB's decision, the sly old foxy stoat.

Surely this couldn't have been in the pipeline for that long, maybe even a spare of the moment decision by Jenson, if not then it was a very well kept secret with some very underhanded play by Jenson.

Problem is what if BAR do have a legally binding contract - BAR will be angry at Jenson, Williams won't have a driver!!

I would have thought that Williams legal team have been through Jensons BAR contract with a fine tooth comb before making any decisions. imho, if what we are lead to believe is true, Dave Richards is going to be one very unhappy bunny, with him and his legal team left scratching their heads wondering where they went wrong!

Who will be no.1 driver at Williams? I think Jenson may have joined Williams under the condition that he was no.1 driver but will most definitly have a fight on his hands with team mate Webber.

Still think Jensons made a mistake, but hey, we shall see...

 

[the B]

BAR are launching a legal challenge - are we sure this isn't some kind of crap arse publicity wanking stunt?

If the clause to get out was based on Honda not being committed, they recently signed on until 2007 - which is beyond JBs 2005 contract with BAR.

 

[wordie]

Why the f**k has some plonker gone and started a new thread on this!

Christ, if you started a new thread everytime there was a press release, you might as well just go and read Yahoo!

Bad move IMO!

 

[the B]

It's not that big a deal for someone to start a new thread on a particular matter - I mean, what if a driver got involved in a fatal accident or something?

I think that would merit a thread of it's own...

 

[g force]

New thread is a good idea....we're discussing everything here from aero changes to driver line-ups to why Ralf is such a utter cock and underserving of an F1 seat

It's pretty big news, given the circumstances....I've still not got a clue what's going on. On the surface I think BAR have a case, but Williams claim they've been through the contract with a legal team. But the Honda deal was signed (was it 'signed' or was it announced that they would be signing??) weeks ago.

Someone is going to coem out of this lookign stupid, or in Jenson's case very unprofessional. If BAR have his contract, his reputation will be damaged. Think Williams will still want him so badly next year? Nah...me neither.

 

[wordie]

It's not that big a deal for someone to start a new thread on a particular matter - I mean, what if a driver got involved in a fatal accident or something?

I think that would merit a thread of it's own...

And I agree. But we're not talking about a driver dying here are we?

And I would have thought that starting a new thread would have been a better idea if it had been at the start of a story rather than half way through! But hey, it seems there's no need to have to jump from one thread to the other as the story has continued here, rather than there!

Still, onto the latest info/disinformation:

I read in the foreign press this morning that Dave R is already in Finland and would be talking to Mika. That would make a very interesting signing.

Jenson says he's pleased to be going to Williams, that he's been loyal to BAR for two years and that's enough for him, but still refuses to meet with Dave R, who has given him until Monday to front up in person and explain why having a mutually agreed contract until 2005 in exchange for his loyalty and a multi-mill £ wage, suddenly has no meaning for him.

There may well be a technicality in the contract that allows him to slide out, but I agree with Dave R on this one. Jenson's option was taken up and agreed by all parties. If there was a technicality it should have been discussed like grown-ups, rather than being used as a spurious excuse to get out of your own commitment.

Based on what I've read so far, Jenson seems to demonstrated a remarkably selfish, and incredibly unprofessional attitude throughout this entire episode so far. And yes, I sympathise very much with the 400 BAR people who have worked their bollocks off so he can get the glory, only to be kicked in the teeth in return. That's not the behaviour of a world champion.

I was keen on seeing Jenson succeed, especially with BAR, but now, I'm sorry, but even if he does become world champion at some stage, he'll have discredited himself and brought the "Sport" (as opposed to the "business") of Formula 1 racing into disrepute, and emphasised to others not just in F1, that it's acceptable to agree one thing and do another regardless of the consequences.

In fact it looks like Jenson's only interest in the Sport, is to financially enrich himself. Unfortunately, at the same time he's diminished his potential stature. Shame.

 

[wordie]

And yes, I will be cheering on Hakkinen and Davidson in the BAR's next year. And I'll put money on Mika finishing higher than Jenson too!

 

[the B]

I really really doubt Mika would be looking to come back...he seems to be whipping up media speculation because he's a bored chap with a lot of kitty. As with all drivers, I'm sure they really miss it once they stop - but he stopped at what sounded like the right time.

As I understand it, Honda signed the continuation at Hockenheim - ie. before Button took off.

 

[wordie]

I really really doubt Mika would be looking to come back...he seems to be whipping up media speculation because he's a bored chap with a lot of kitty.

You may be correct, but I don't see why Mika needs to do that. It doesn't strike me as the sort of thing Mika would do. That said, I didn't think JB would do what he appears to have done.

No doubt all will be revealed.

As I understand it, Honda signed the continuation at Hockenheim - ie. before Button took off.

That's my understanding as well. And that JB and his management acknowledged his option being taken up soon after the Honda deal was struck.

I read that it's something in Hondas contract to the effect that they can get out if the deal with with BAR if British American Tobbaco walk away with the introduction of the ad ban, or they sell the team on to a no-hoper. That, apparently indicates Honda's lack of commitment according to JB's management.

I have to say, Honda did walk away from the sport and left, ironically enough, Williams in the lurch at the end of the 96 season wasn't it? The year Ayrton after died and Damon was robbed! (Don't crucify me if I'm wrong – my chronology of the sport is pretty rusty...)

And I'm sure Williams have been vocal enough about that over the past few days.

Still a pretty slim excuse in my book.

 

[the B]

I have a feeling this is JB chasing the money more than anything...I think he realises he's not that good a driver so he better cash in while his reputation is still good...

Until it's shot down by Webber making him look very ordinary - or just not world championship winning material.

 

[silentNate]

 

[the B]

Gascoyne has hinted that Trulli would be coming to Toyota - otherwise Panis would keep his seat.

Pretty loose rumour but Dave Richards might be so annoyed with Button, that he'll get Davidson to race instead of him for the rest of the season. Richards did say such rumours were just that after the meeting with Button.

Bernie Ecclestone has meanwhile weighed in saying that Button could lose his Superlicense (that allows him to race in F1, F3000 and F3 I think?) if he's found to be in breach of contract by trying to go to Williams.

Williams will be ditching the tusk structure front nose.

Ralph Firman, that stinker of a driver, is hoping to get a seat again. Don't know who would take him since he's slow, crashes etc. He just has money really...

The US$48 million entry fee into F1 won't be dropped, making it less likely new teams will join.

 

[wordie]

Read a piece somewhere that tries to explain the "techicality" that JB is claiming gives him the right to dump on his current commitments.

I think it was the Sunday Times:

Button’s argument seems to rest on the definition of the word “intends”. The option BAR had on Button for 2005 depended on him having received confirmation by a certain date that Honda would continue to supply BAR’s engines next season.

Honda confirmed that they “intended” (as opposed to “would”) to supply the engines, which Button’s legal team reckoned was not good enough.

Seems pretty flimsy to me.

I also heard that he was a bit pissed of at the uncometitiveness of the BAR chassis at Silverstone, and that by Germany the deal had been done, despite the fact that he was able to use effectively the same chassis to go from 13th at the start to 2nd at the end.

He's a muppet IMO!

 

[g force]

Yep he's a muppet - the more I think of this the less convinced I am - on Speed Sunday, Watson was sayign he was looking for two years time, when the Honda deal finished, Schumacher retires and Williams would be in a stronger position.

I don't buy that argument - sure Williams are a very big team with support from BMW, but BAR are growing and Honda have a deal until 2007 at least. Also, relying on someone else to retire to try and win the WDC smacks of "i'm not really good enough so I need the very best car".

Problem is, even if MS retires, there's still JPM, Kimi, Alonso, Webber, Rubens, plus soem of the younger guys like Luizzi.

I started this season cheering for JB after some of the shit cars he's had and was chuffed when he got pole, but i'm really going off the guy big time.

 

[damaged goods]

FIA says that Button drives for BAR in 2005 or doesn't drive at all......hehe that'll teach him!

Can't imagine it'll be that comfortable a season though, can you?

 

[the B]

The FIA body which regulates driver contracts has said Button's only valid contract to race in Formula 1 is with BAR Racing

Looks like he's going to be muppet number 1 when this dispute resolves in the favour of BAR...

Schumacher predicts a difficult race in Hungary, Jaguar and BMW will be bringing in significant new parts to their cars and Renault are bringing a new D spec engine.

 

[wordie]

FIA says that Button drives for BAR in 2005 or doesn't drive at all......hehe that'll teach him!

Can't imagine it'll be that comfortable a season though, can you?

If the eventual outcome is that the BAR contract is the pre-dominant one, I think you'll see a deal whereby Williams have to buy him out of the BAR contract. And I don't suppose the money to do that will come from Franks pocket either...

Jenson may find himself driving for Williams for nothing for a couple of years, and that as you so admirably note DG, will teach him!

Either way, after all the recent recriminations the trust between BAR and Button will have been lost, and even though you have a driver under contract, if he doesn't want to drive for your team, you'll be hard pushed to make him.

I think Buttons' management have really screwed this one up and made him look not only like a complete toss-pot, and a laughing stock within the entire F1 paddock, but an unprofessional one at that.

 

[g force]

Yep, Button is going to look like a bit of a twat...but the fault must lie with his management. Either way i've gone off him in a big way....particularly after that interview at the weekend. Oh how i'd love it if Sato went and won in Suzuka

Anyhow...so if he is at BAR for sure....who gets the 2nd Williams seat??! IMO they should always have aimed for a youngster to partner Webber rather than Button. Hiedfeld must be in with a shout...mebbe Davidson....god knows....this whole BAR thing has made it very intreresting. But with everythign that has gone on it's time for clear heads - don't let DC get the drive!!

Will people stop thinking Firman is a good driver! Justin Wilson is miles better and deserves a seat. Anthony Davidson is as good as Wilson, so Firman's chances are pretty limited.

 

[damaged goods]

As Wordie has said, you can't make a driver drive if he has no wish to and the chances are he will be bought out of his contract with BAR by BMW/Williams.

This then, in theory, creates the perfect opportunity for Dave Richards to give Davidson a drive in Hungary and see how he stands up in race conditions.

Of course one race may not necessarily determine who takes JB's place in the team but it's worth a look - or why not just put JB on gardening-leave and race Davidson instead. I can't see that putting JB back in a BAR car will cause anything but awkwardness and resentment.

JB has stated that he'll put in 100% for the remainder of the season - yeah right, and this constant harping on about being a world champion with Williams is adding such credibility that statement

I say give Davidson the chance he deserves, I think he could prove that letting him go to another team would be a tad foolish.....plus the fact that DC is the last driver that I would want to see at BAR - chuck him in a Jag and be done with!

 

[the B]

I'm not sure if Button can be 'bought out'. Such clauses in F1 contracts are rare in comparison to football ones.

BAR could find reason to terminate the contract but then don't have a way to 'sell him on' and get some money out of it all.

And Davidson won't race this season - I find it unlikely anyway...

I'm just waiting for the ITV spin on it all - they love Button so fucking much if they try and make him look good in this...

 

[mr_eko]

JB has stated that he'll put in 100% for the remainder of the season - yeah right, and this constant harping on about being a world champion with Williams is adding such credibility that statement

what makes u think he wouldn't give 100%? Will he drive at 90%? I'm sure this deal has taken a while to set up and it's not affected hs commitment so far and he'd surely want to want to start next season on high by getting that third place. I think BAR are just kicking up a fuss because they want some money from Williams why would you want to force a someone to drive for you?

 

[the B]

This deal was set up in hours according to Button's management...

BAR are kicking up a fuss because a driver they've put a lot into has told them to fuck off a year early on an agreement that was made in a mere few hours. It's pretty obvious JB is not committed to BAR at all.

 

[wordie]

I'm not sure if Button can be 'bought out'. Such clauses in F1 contracts are rare in comparison to football ones.

BAR could find reason to terminate the contract but then don't have a way to 'sell him on' and get some money out of it all.

I agree, but if all sides come to an agreement to end a contract, then it wouldn't be without financial compensation for the team, in this case BAR, that still has a valid contract with the driver for 2005.

Or not. Williams of course are sure they have a contract with Button for 2005. Dave R is trying to establish that BAR has a prior commitment from Button for 2005.

This is going to end in front of a judge who will make a decision on who has the contract for Buttons services in 2005. Either way, it's gonna be messy and confused for a while.

And Davidson won't race this season - I find it unlikely anyway...

I'm just waiting for the ITV spin on it all - they love Button so fucking much if they try and make him look good in this...

No one is disputing that Button is contracted to BAR for the rest of this season, so I agree, I don't think you'll find the team sticking Davidson into the car "just to give him a run."

What will be interesting is to see how BAR react to having Button – their leading points scorer this season – driving the BAR car for the remainder of the season. No doubt all sides will indicate their commitment to each other for the rest of the season, as Button already has, but will his engineers have the same commitment to getting the best from his car?

Someone (sorry, forgotten who right now) has already said that for the rest of the season both Button and BAR need each other. There's still points to be had and reputations to be maintained.

But will Button actually go as hard as he would have done earlier in the season? Or be allowed to?

Will the BAR factory or indeed Honda be giving Button the 100% effort he's recieved til now? Who get's the latest parts now and how generous will the team be in allowing Button access to the telemetry of the two other cars?

How will this dispute affect the concentration of not just Button but the team? And will Sato go a little crazy trying to prove he's the logical replacement for Button?

I'd put money on Sato winning a race before Button whilst they are in similar cars. And with the help of Honda, the Jap GP could be a blinder...

Watching what happens at BAR for the rest of the season will be fascinating!

 

[wordie]

I see Gerhard Berger is being tipped for a role with the FIA.

I hope there's truth in that as I have a lot of respect Gerhard and he can bring some actual racing knowledge to what is in effect a pack of bumbling old guys with no knowledge or experience of actual racing.

I suspect he'd be welcomed by the teams as well.

 

[g force]

Yep I think Gerhard would be a great choice....good bloke (we've all heard the Barry Sheene + 8 girls story ) and very knowledgable.

Sadly, it's going to take more the Gerhard to make a difference - the $48m entry price has to be dropped as it's a major barrier to new teams joining and they really need to sort out the rules once and for all. Oh, and convince MS to retire

 

[wordie]

Apparently there may be a dispute about bonus payments that were the straw that caused Buttons management to look elswhere for a new deal.

Check out this story.