Winter Olympics: Putin cautions gay visitors to Sochi

[SpookyFrank]

thats the thing though, from the way people are carrying on about this youd think it had been made a crime to be gay in Russia. That plainly isnt the case and im more interested in legal details than i am in listening to which westerner can express the most outrage the loudest. It gets a bit silly when that happens . Im not refrring to you mind, just in general . Pogroms, nazis...all that bloody rubbish

It is probably still better to be a gay person in Russia than in Uganda, but to suggest that gay people in Russia aren't facing genuine persecution is a bit much unless you've been there and experienced the situation for yourself. The experiences of actual Russians indicate that, while the situation could concievably be worse, it's still bad enough to justify people's concerns.

Do people have to get killed before you're willing to sympathise with their plight?

 

[SpookyFrank]

its allies and enemies, simple as . Hence my request that someone actually spells out in full what this law on minors actually says before I make my mind up on it . Id prefer that to the hyperbole, prejudice and plain old fashioned barrel scraping which is all Ive seen so far on this thread.

What a law says and how authorities choose to enforce it are very different things. Governments have always said one thing and done another, and historically Russian governments in particular have excelled at this.

 

[Casually Red]

It is probably still better to be a gay person in Russia than in Uganda, but to suggest that gay people in Russia aren't facing genuine persecution is a bit much unless you've been there and experienced the situation for yourself. The experiences of actual Russians indicate that, while the situation could concievably be worse, it's still bad enough to justify people's concerns.

Do people have to get killed before you're willing to sympathise with their plight?

its not probably better to be gay in Russia than Uganda, it most definitely is . And the issue at hand is this particular law regarding providing information to minors. Asking for clarity on that issue doesnt equate to not having sympathy . Nor does taking issue with hyperbolic terms such as Putin engaging in pogroms, thats infantile type of language .

 

[Casually Red]

What a law says and how authorities choose to enforce it are very different things. Governments have always said one thing and done another, and historically Russian governments in particular have excelled at this.

so its not even about the law then

 

[Lord Camomile]

Nor does taking issue with hyperbolic terms such as Putin engaging in pogroms, thats infantile type of language .

You're the only one who has mentioned pogroms on this thread

 

[Casually Red]

You're the only one who has mentioned pogroms on this thread

wrong im afraid, Spookyfrank referred to them earlier

Putin's anti-gay pogroms

 

[Lord Camomile]

Curses, damn my half-hearted searching!

 

[SpookyFrank]

With hindsight 'pogroms' was not the right word to use. I only hope it doesn't turn out to be in any way prophetic.

 

[J Ed]

It is probably still better to be a gay person in Russia than in Uganda, but to suggest that gay people in Russia aren't facing genuine persecution is a bit much unless you've been there and experienced the situation for yourself. The experiences of actual Russians indicate that, while the situation could concievably be worse, it's still bad enough to justify people's concerns.

Do people have to get killed before you're willing to sympathise with their plight?

It is awful, you only have to look at the distressing pictures of the kids tortured by homophobic cunts to realise that. Putin at the very least is legitimising an atmosphere that can lead to these attacks.

That doesn't make the likes of Cameron and Obama playing up the gay rights angle in Russia while ignoring the much worse situation in countries like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain any less nauseatingly hypocritical.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Russian police beat up Peter Tatchell when he attended Gay rights event there a few years ago, before this new law.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-arrest-Peter-Tatchell-before-Eurovision.html

Here is more news about the new russian law
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/peter-g-tatchell/russian-gay-propaganda_b_3428829.html

http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/campaigns/love-russia-hate-homophobia

 

[friendofdorothy]

It is probably still better to be a gay person in Russia than in Uganda, but to suggest that gay people in Russia aren't facing genuine persecution is a bit much unless you've been there and experienced the situation for yourself. The experiences of actual Russians indicate that, while the situation could concievably be worse, it's still bad enough to justify people's concerns.

Do people have to get killed before you're willing to sympathise with their plight?

I certainly won't be planning to visit either country, or qatar, or most of africa, or the middle east.

http://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Lest you all forget - gay people were arrested in Britian for just kissing in public as recently as 1988.

 

[Casually Red]

Russian police beat up Peter Tatchell when he attended Gay rights event there a few years ago, before this new law.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-arrest-Peter-Tatchell-before-Eurovision.html

no they bloody well didnt . That report youve linked to makes no such claim at all . Its more exaggeration, like the pogroms earlier . This is what annoys me about this stuff, the constant lies , exaggerations and hyperbole . Theres no need for it . It makes it impossible to believe anyone or take them seriously when they come out with this stuff . And therefore even harder to form a logically based position on whats actually happening.

 

[friendofdorothy]

no they bloody well didnt . That report youve linked to makes no such claim at all . Its more exaggeration, like the pogroms earlier . This is what annoys me about this stuff, the constant lies , exaggerations and hyperbole . Theres no need for it . It makes it impossible to believe anyone or take them seriously when they come out with this stuff . And therefore even harder to form a logically based position on whats actually happening.

? ? ?
what russians didn't beat up Peter Tatchel? is that what you mean? It was widely reported at the time - just search 'Peter Tatchel russia' and you'll find lots and lots of reports and pictures. I have no need to exagerate, Peter still suffers from his injuries.

I've read the whole thread - but what are you on about? please stop mentioning pogroms.

 

[Casually Red]

? ? ?
what russians didn't beat up Peter Tatchel? is that what you mean? It was widely reported at the time - just search 'Peter Tatchel russia' and you'll find lots and lots of reports and pictures. I have no need to exagerate, Peter still suffers from his injuries.

I've read the whole thread - but what are you on about? please stop mentioning pogroms.

peter tatchell was beaten up by homophobic extremists in russia a few years earlier . He was not beaten up by the russian police according to that article you just posted, go read it again

and while your at it go read the thread again

 

[friendofdorothy]

the links earlier where just the first I found - this illustrates what happened to Peter Tatchell better
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2007/05/27/peter-tatchell-speaks-out-after-his-violent-moscow-assault/

This mentions his injuries and health problems since. I remember being shocked that this was the Mail, as it's not best known for supporting queer rights.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...is-Is-Peter-Tatchell-bravest-man-Britain.html

 

[Casually Red]

the links earlier where just the first I found - this illustrates what happened to Peter Tatchell better
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2007/05/27/peter-tatchell-speaks-out-after-his-violent-moscow-assault/

This mentions his injuries and health problems since. I remember being shocked that this was the Mail, as it's not best known for supporting queer rights.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...is-Is-Peter-Tatchell-bravest-man-Britain.html

youve linked to 2 completely different incidents now. Thats one from a few years prior to his arrest at the Eurovision, which you first linked to . You claimed the police beat him up . They didnt . Neo nazi homophobes did .

You made a mistake, can happen to anyone I suppose. But the fact is your claim the russian police beat him up is totally wrong .

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Unfortunately backward societies will continue to behave in backward ways until taught otherwise

 

[friendofdorothy]

peter tatchell was beaten up by homophobic extremists in russia a few years earlier . He was not beaten up by the russian police according to that article you just posted, go read it again

Telegraph wasn't the most graphic account - but even they say:

Raising his hands in surrender, he shouted "OK, OK!" as riot police officers dragged him away.

Daily Mail piece starts with a photo of him being arrested by Russian police (ok article is mostly about his other beatings)

Russian police allowed violence to be perpetrated against me

perhaps my memory isn't what it was. It was a few years ago (that was how I remembered it) - so Russian riot police arrested him after he was beaten up and let his attackers go - Is that any better?

 

[Casually Red]

2 different incidents, years apart

 

[barney_pig]

100 years ago Edwardian casually red would have been arguing that soppy western liberals should stop complaining about tsar Nicolas, it's not illegal to be Jewish in Russia! Talk about pogroms is rubbish, any attacks on Jews are carried out by the black hundreds, not by the state.

 

[seventh bullet]

I know that pogrom is a word that has been used beyond its original meaning with regard to Jews in the old Russian Empire.

For example, this is a pogrom, although one aimed at Caucasians in the Karelian town of Kondopoga nearly a eight years ago.



The Mr Bean of the Russian far-right, Alexander Belov (once of a member of the Black Hundredist historical society Pamyat and now leader of the Movement Against Illegal Immigration), turned up later with his mates and a megaphone to try and incite yet more violence.

More recently, an anti-migrant pogrom in Moscow last year, following the murder of a Russian by a man from Azerbaijan.



Again, Belov was there inciting violence against migrants, or anybody with a 'swarthy' southern-looking appearance because obviously they're all foreigners, all to blame and should be beaten, stabbed and their property destroyed or looted.

This is going a little off topic but just thought I'd show anti-Putin Good Guy, Alexei Navalny (circled), in good company at a nationalist Moscow rally back in December 2011. Belov is on the far left. Neo-Nazi Dimitry Demushkin is fourth from the right. Belov's DPNI press secretary, Alla Gorbunova is holding Navalny's hand. Scum.

Now, I am no fan of CR's crude Russia love, but what is actually happening in that country? Have there been any pogroms against gay people?

 

[friendofdorothy]

Gay people having a difficult time of it. How do you promote homosexuality - is it such an attractive idea that mere exposure to gay people holding hands or kissing will forever corrupt youths? that was the section 28 issue here. There is nothing like govt/media disapproval to encourage causual hate crimes, it certainly did here under Thatchers hateful reign/ media AIDS misinformation 30 years ago. It sounds like Russia now = UK 1980s? Only with more violence.

pics of last years pride:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

 

[Fuchs66]

It's like some parts of the world are going backwards on gay rights these days

In Russia it's business as usual, it's just now they feel confident enough that they don't give a fuck who knows it.

 

[seventh bullet]

Gay people having a difficult time of it. How do you promote homosexuality - is it such an attractive idea that mere exposure to gay people holding hands or kissing will forever corrupt youths? that was the section 28 issue here. There is nothing like govt/media disapproval to encourage causual hate crimes, it certainly did here under Thatchers hateful reign/ media AIDS misinformation 30 years ago. It sounds like Russia now = UK 1980s? Only with more violence.

pics of last years pride:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

Indeed, but it's not a 'pogrom.'

Have a look at the recently arrested rich kid thug and bully Tesak's Occupy Paedophilia internet video 'movement' (experience from his Format 18 days) to see what J Ed has talked about.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

no they bloody well didnt . That report youve linked to makes no such claim at all . Its more exaggeration, like the pogroms earlier . This is what annoys me about this stuff, the constant lies , exaggerations and hyperbole . Theres no need for it . It makes it impossible to believe anyone or take them seriously when they come out with this stuff . And therefore even harder to form a logically based position on whats actually happening.

What exactly is it that you're defending: the Russian human-rights record as it pertains to gay people?

 

[Casually Red]

What exactly is it that you're defending: the Russian human-rights record as it pertains to gay people?

point out were im defending anything. The poster made a post that simply wasnt true . Pointing that out isnt defending something . Unless youre supposed to just accept any old inaccurate information on Russia and Russians otherwise it means youre a wrongun .

 

[Casually Red]

100 years ago Edwardian casually red would have been arguing that soppy western liberals should stop complaining about tsar Nicolas, it's not illegal to be Jewish in Russia! Talk about pogroms is rubbish, any attacks on Jews are carried out by the black hundreds, not by the state.

no, id just be arguing the claim made by the chap on the international telegraph cable wasnt true . Because it wasnt . The Russian cops simply didnt beat up Peter Tatchell in either incident he linked to . Am I supposed to just pretend they did or something because its ok to make any shit claims we like about Russians in general ?

and youre extrapolating a load of disingenuous old shite there as well chief . If youve evidence of anti gay pogroms post it . Otherwise lay off those types of insults .

 

[friendofdorothy]

Indeed, but it's not a 'pogrom.'

Have a look at the recently arrested rich kid thug and bully Tesak's Occupy Paedophilia internet video 'movement' (experience from his Format 18 days) to see what J Ed has talked about.

Sorry? - Of course I've heard of Tasek, but why are you directing me to look at that shit commiting homophobic crimes? was that directed at me or other posters?

I seen reports from Russia - none of it good. Why are we getting into a its better than x or worse than y sort of argument? Russia a macho homophobic place where queer people are not safe.

But will eveyone please stop saying fucking pogrom!

 

[Casually Red]

But will eveyone please stop saying fucking pogram!

its spelt pogrom

P O G R O M

pogrom

 

[seventh bullet]

Sorry? - Of course I've heard of Tasek, but why are you directing me to look at that shit commiting homophobic crimes? was that directed at me or other posters?

I seen reports from Russia - none of it good. Why are we getting into a its better than x or worse than y sort of argument?

Who is doing that?

And calm down! I thought you were responding to me earlier.