Why is Buddhism so attractive to westerners?

[upsidedownwalrus]

So if the Chinese going into a place with an oppressive system, and making it 'better' is ok, then I guess it's ok for the Americans to do it too.

But the Americans have turned dozens of countries to shit. Iraq used to be a pretty stable place and a model for progressive secular islam. Now it's one of the world's most dangerous countries and a breeding ground for fundamentalism.

China in Tibet, well it's much more nuanced. The Chinese haven't wreaked havoc there like the yanks did, then again it's very heavily policed.

 

[Cid]

But the Americans have turned dozens of countries to shit. Iraq used to be a pretty stable place and a model for progressive secular islam. Now it's one of the world's most dangerous countries and a breeding ground for fundamentalism.

China in Tibet, well it's much more nuanced. The Chinese haven't wreaked havoc there like the yanks did, then again it's very heavily policed.

Other than destroying quite a few monasteries, installing an authoritarian regime, imprisoning thousands, forcing many to flee, destroying the land for resources and killing 400,000+ people you mean?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Iraq used to be a pretty stable place and a model for progressive secular islam.

I suppose, if you weren't Kurdish or Shi'ite.

 

[fogbat]

Knowledge from far away automatically gets +1 Impressiveness.

 

[butchersapron]

Buddhism isn't really that relevant to a discussion about the invasion of Tibet and subsequent occupation and absorbtion into Greater China.

It wasn't the Dali Lama that signed the 1951 agreement with China that allowed them to stay on condition they preserved the fedual ruling class for at least the medium term? Surely the Dali Lama's historic endorsement and defence of those fedual relations compared to the current position says something about Buddhism as 'practiced' in that county, its relation to power, the state and so on, and how that then relates to its abstract precepts.

 

[bluestreak]

Everything looks better from a long way away.

 

[kyser_soze]

My issues with Buddhism:

1. It was the creation of an tired, cynical aristocrat, who basically said 'I've done all the fun stuff and all the shit stuff so you don't have to, live a quiet, humble life of moderation and balance and you'll be rewarded'

2. Happiness vs. striving for something better. Buddhism encourages people to be happy with their lot, not to strive. The whole first premise of 'Life is suffering' sets it all up - whatever happens, you will suffer in life, so you might as well be happy about it.

3. Happiness globally has less to do with specific faiths, and more to do with the social ties those faiths support - the happiest nations on Earth are mainly Catholic; they also happen to be poor as well, but socially there is strong focus on church and family across the whole of society, which is utilised as a pillar of strength to say 'Well, I might live in Trash City in Manilla, but I've got my family and I've got God and one day I'll go to a better place'.

 

[Idaho]

It wasn't the Dali Lama that signed the 1951 agreement with China that allowed them to stay on condition they preserved the fedual ruling class for at least the medium term? Surely the Dali Lama's historic endorsement and defence of those fedual relations compared to the current position says something about Buddhism as 'practiced' in that county, its relation to power, the state and so on, and how that then relates to its abstract precepts.

It doesn't say anything about Buddhism. It says something about politics. Why should anyone accept that the Dalai Lama is the central authority and personification of Buddhism?

 

[Belushi]

It doesn't say anything about Buddhism. It says something about politics.

I disagree, it does as Butchers said say something about Buddhism as practiced in Tibet.

 

[Idaho]

2. Happiness vs. striving for something better. Buddhism encourages people to be happy with their lot, not to strive. The whole first premise of 'Life is suffering' sets it all up - whatever happens, you will suffer in life, so you might as well be happy about it.

That's not quite true. It isn't about not striving, but not seeking happiness externally: if I have one more pair of shoes, one more line of coke, a bigger house, another shag, etc I will be happy.

Buddhism talks about the middle way. A life of moderation. Not excess, and not excessive privation. Alongside a general principle of do unto others...

 

[butchersapron]

It doesn't say anything about Buddhism. It says something about politics. Why should anyone accept that the Dalai Lama is the central authority and personification of Buddhism?

That's right and the USSR said nothing at all about communism. Ok, discuss abstract buddhism alone - leave any interconnection with the real world out of it. i'm more interested in buddhism-in-the-world, and more to the point, buddhism can only exist in that real world.

And who said anything about "the Dalai Lama is the central authority and personification of Buddhism?" I made sure that i said the opposite by sressing "Buddhism as 'practiced' in that county". How do you manage to so consistently get just about every one of my posts back to front? Is it just lazy reading or is it more trying to fit other posters into a box shaped like your preconceptions of what that poster will say?

 

[kyser_soze]

Buddhism talks about the middle way. A life of moderation. Not excess, and not excessive privation.

Beause some rich kid did both and then decided that it's better to have neither.

Sorry, but I disagree with the fundamental premise that moderation is the best way forward in life, my issues with Buddhism are baseline. As for 'do unto others..' any halfway decent system of thought that thinks itself as being ethical incorporates that as a principle...

 

[Idaho]

I disagree, it does as Butchers said say something about Buddhism as practiced in Tibet.

And yet I would imagine both of you wouldn't see Stalin as representing communism as practiced in Russia?

There is no doctrinal or philosphical message in Buddhism that says you need to create a large ruling priest caste.

 

[butchersapron]

And yet I would imagine both of you wouldn't see Stalin as representing communism as practiced in Russia?

There is no doctrinal or philosphical message in Buddhism that says you need to create a large ruling priest caste.

Ok, then you'd think that the USSR didn't tell us anything about communism - do you? Or do you think that it did. You've got yourself tied up in a little knot here.

 

[Idaho]

That's right and the USSR said nothing at all about communism. Ok, discuss abstract buddhism alone - leave any interconnection with the real world out of it. i'm more interested in buddhism-in-the-world, and more to the point, buddhism can only exist in that real world.

And who said anything about "the Dalai Lama is the central authority and personification of Buddhism?" I made sure that i said the opposite by sressing "Buddhism as 'practiced' in that county". How do you manage to so consistently get just about every one of my posts back to front? Is it just lazy reading or is it more trying to fit other posters into a box shaped like your preconceptions of what that poster will say?

Ok - if you want to discuss Buddhism as practiced by the ruling priest class in one, sparsely populated country in a particular period in history and have that as the central feature of the discussion - go ahead. I don't think you are going get much in the way of wider insight though.

 

[Belushi]

There is no doctrinal or philosphical message in Buddhism that says you need to create a large ruling priest caste.

And yet it happened.

 

[butchersapron]

Gee thanks Idaho. You're a real swell guy.

 

[Idaho]

Ok, then you'd think that the USSR didn't tell us anything about communism - do you? Or do you think that it did. You've got yourself tied up in a little knot here.

Yeah I'm so tied up. Oh my god. What can I do... someone please save me x a million.

 

[butchersapron]

And yet it happened.

Don't bring history into it!

Where is this buddhism that doesn't exist in the real world anyway? Where does it exist?

 

[Idaho]

And yet it happened.

Also - they drank Yak butter tea in Tibet. That's what lead to a feudal priest ruling class. Simple causality.

 

[butchersapron]

Yeah I'm so tied up. Oh my god. What can I do... someone please save me x a million.

Well, you have, Clearly you don't care as you equally clearly don't think through your posts or the implications of your arguments.

 

[butchersapron]

Also - they drank Yak butter tea in Tibet. That's what lead to a feudal priest ruling class. Simple causality.

Well, that's what i would be interested in reading some debate on. But you said we couldn't. That looking at the interconnections between buddhism and/power/state/economy etc were verboten and would tell us nothing. But now apparently we have to investigate these things in order to get the real picture. Make your mind up like.

 

[Idaho]

Don't bring history into it!

Where is this buddhism that doesn't exist in the real world anyway? Where does it exist?

What are you talking about? Been on the ales a bit early today butchers?

I cam on this thread to mention the philisophical strand of Buddhism. And because you know little else but how to make you usual tired patter (devoid as ever of an actual opinion), you've tried to get me to in some way justify the existence of the Dalai Lama

 

[butchersapron]

What are you talking about? Been on the ales a bit early today butchers?

I cam on this thread to mention the philisophical strand of Buddhism. And because you know little else but how to make you usual tired patter (devoid as ever of an actual opinion), you've tried to get me to in some way justify the existence of the Dalai Lama

I have not, I've disagreed with your arguement that real-life examples of the interconnection between buddhism and the real world can rell us anything and i've told you why. Why on earth would i expect you to defend the Dali lama as a result? Bizzare.

Seriously, i'm not kidding, you seem unable to read one of my posts without misreading it or applying some absurd motive to it. All i've argued (with no real response) is that buddhism exists in the world, and that the historical record of it in one region might possibly be interesting for number of reasons.

 

[Idaho]

Well, that's what i would be interested in reading some debate on. But you said we couldn't. That looking at the interconnections between buddhism and/power/state/economy etc were verboten and would tell us nothing. But now apparently we have to investigate these things in order to get the real picture. Make your mind up like.

Yes I said they were forbidden. Those were my exact words! Heheheh - from the man who just said:

Is it just lazy reading or is it more trying to fit other posters into a box shaped like your preconceptions of what that poster will say?

 

[Belushi]

Also - they drank Yak butter tea in Tibet. That's what lead to a feudal priest ruling class. Simple causality.

I dont think it was the Yak Butter Tea makers which signed a deal with the PRC to maintain the feudal class structure though was it?

 

[Idaho]

I have not, I've disagreed with your arguement that real-life examples of the interconnection between buddhism and the real world can rell us anything and i've told you why. Why on earth would i expect you to defend the Dali lama as a result? Bizzare.

Seriously, i'm not kidding, you seem unable to read one of my posts without misreading it or applying some absurd motive to it. All i've argued (with no real response) is that buddhism exists in the world, and that the historical record of it in one region might possibly be interesting for number of reasons.

Buddhism does exist in the world. As do a range of philosophies and religions. These philosophies and religions and used by ruling elites the world over to justify what they do at that countries particular stage of economic and political development. Little more than local colour.

 

[Idaho]

I dont think it was the Yak Butter Tea makers which signed a deal with the PRC to maintain the feudal class structure though was it?

No - but the Yak butter tea makers were Buddhists too. Even if they didn't like the feudal structure.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes I said they were forbidden. Those were my exact words! Heheheh - from the man who just said:

That's right, you didn't say forbidden, you said "Buddhism isn't really that relevant to a discussion about the invasion of Tibet and subsequent occupation and absorbtion into Greater China." and i said i could see how it might well be relavent and enlightening on certain issues. To which you responded with a charicature of my post saying the exact opposite of what i had said. I'm used to you getting it back to front now, no matter how carefully i word it (carefully worded because i know what misreading you'll more than likely put on it - and you did put the misreading i expected on it). Pointless.

 

[butchersapron]

Buddhism does exist in the world. As do a range of philosophies and religions. These philosophies and religions and used by ruling elites the world over to justify what they do at that countries particular stage of economic and political development. Little more than local colour.

Wow, thanks. But there's still little relevance on a thread about buddhism in talking about how your insight operates in a particular region dominated by Buddhism at a particular time - is that right?