Why is Buddhism so attractive to westerners?

[Cid]

It doesn't have a creator God. It, as you've noted, often has gods. Sometimes loads.

Yes, but it doesn't have to... I think this may have helped its spread a lot, after all a massive problem with religious conversion is relinquishing traditions and the actual faith that was their first (obviously), with Buddhism this isn't a problem.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

"forget that, you alone have the power to change yourself"

Well, the problem is that that isn't any more true than it is when expressed entirely secularly. People have influence on their own situation certainly; they do not have absolute control. Really really wanting something and really really trying does not mean you will get it, and the reason is probably not that you didn't want it or try for it enough. It ties neatly into all sorts of modern secular beliefs but it doesn't actually make them any more true.

 

[isitme]

For me, it's attractive because it has its roots in the material world, and in emperical psychology. It's not "Do this and you'll be rewarded. Promise. No you won't find out till much later, so you'd better do your damndest not to fail me!" but "Make these changes to your behaviour and do these thinking exercises and your life will be better. Don't believe me? try it for yourself!"

Ultimately it's this focus on self-reliance which I think is attractive to westerners. Instead of filling a god-shaped hole, it just says "forget that, you alone have the power to change yourself". Unfortunately, the other main focuses of bhuddism - the rejection of material desire and universal charity and forgiveness are not quite so popular. If all you're doing is yoga and meditation, it'll make you feel good but wouldn't lead to a better world if everybody did it.

are you a buddhist?

 

[Crispy]

nope

and I'd have to admit that the reason is because I'm lazy. I'm happy already and can't be bothered to commit to the discipline that you'd need to really get anything out of it.

 

[Y_I_Otter]

It doesn't have a creator God. It, as you've noted, often has gods. Sometimes loads.

There's nothing contradictory in describing oneself simultaneously as a Buddhist and an atheist. The central truths of it aren't about a literal interpretation of myths and buying into complex cosmologies.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There's nothing contradictory in describing oneself simultaneously as a Buddhist and an atheist. The central truths of it aren't about a literal interpretation of myths and buying into complex cosmologies.

No, hold on, they are, though. You have to buy in to a bunch of significant ontological issues if you're going to be an actual Buddhist.

 

[danny la rouge]

There's nothing contradictory in describing oneself simultaneously as a Buddhist and an atheist.

Indeed. Because they don't have a creator God. Not because they don't have God/s; they often do.

 

[Voley]

This might sound overly simplistic, but I find it attractive simply because people in devout Buddhist countries seem to be the happiest bunch of people I've come across.

 

[isitme]

This might sound overly simplistic, but I find it attractive simply because people in devout Buddhist countries seem to be the happiest bunch of people I've come across.

Sri Lanka? Cambodia?

 

[Y_I_Otter]

An actual Buddhist? Why?

A Buddhist defines himself as someone acknowleding the Four Noble Truths and making an attempt to follow the short list of suggestions called The Eightfold Path.

There isn't a single word about god in that anywhere. Everything else is up to the practitioner.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

An actual Buddhist? Why?

A Buddhist defines himself as someone acknowleding the Four Noble Truths and making an attempt to follow the short list of suggestions called The Eightfold Path.

There isn't a single word about god in that anywhere. Everything else is up to the practitioner.

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering (i.e. the Eightfold Path should be followed).

These are all distinct beliefs. The fact that there's no creator-god there doesn't mean that you are not required to believe stuff to be a Buddhist.

 

[danny la rouge]

An actual Buddhist?

Whole geographies of them.

Why? You'd need to ask them.

 

[Voley]

If you read up on how nomads and peasants were treated by monks under a theocracy it was pretty shocking. Monks were almost like royalty in England a few hundred years ago, not quite as bad, but they didn't just sit and meditate the whole time. Buddhism as an organised religion can be just as corrupt and nasty as any other organised religion, especially the extreme tibetan version where people could get the lash for unneccesarily hurting plants and so on

Tibet's a shitload worse under the Chinese, isitme, really.

Me and my guide got followed by undercover police in Lhasa just for having a conversation in the Potala Palace.

It's Orwellian there, seriously.

 

[danny la rouge]

Ignore above. I realise now you weren't talking to me.

<smiles beatifically>

 

[Voley]

Sri Lanka? Cambodia?

Never been to Sri Lanka.

Cambodians are one of the most optimistic bunch of people I've met, definitely. Everyone you talk to lost someone under Pol Pot but they're still undefeated, still hopeful for the future.

Difficult to tell how much Buddhism informs this, but it's certainly a part. A major one, I'd imagine.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Never been to Sri Lanka.

Cambodians are one of the most optimistic bunch of people I've met, definitely. Everyone you talk to lost someone under Pol Pot but they're still undefeated, still hopeful for the future.

Difficult to tell how much Buddhism informs this, but it's certainly a part. A major one, I'd imagine.

There's the whole Tamil thing in Sri Lanka.

 

[isitme]

Tibet's a shitload worse under the Chinese, isitme, really.

Me and my guide got followed by undercover police in Lhasa just for having a conversation in the Potala Palace.

It's Orwellian there, seriously.

Well it's impossible to say given the whole situation

I'm not sticking up for the Chinese tho, I just find it strange how a lot of westeners seem to advocate a theocracy in the name of democracy. I barely know anything about China or Tibet so I shouldn't comment really...

 

[Agent Sparrow]

I know a little bit about Buddhism, as in I know the basic philosophy and history of it, and although I'm not religious it sort of appeals to me. I have a lot of problems with the way Buddhism functions as an organised religion, but the actual philosophy I don't have any problem with at all, whereas Christianity, Islam, Sikhism etc despite being based on good ideas come across as a load of bollocks

I would never out and out reject it the way I would with other religions, especially Christianity and Islam.

I don't think this view is uncommon at all, look at the amount of people who support the Free Tibet campaign despite how shit it would have been to live in Tibet under the Dalai Lama compared with how it is under Chinese rule

Is this due to ignorance ofWesteners? Yoda? Or is Buddhism a more complete philosphy?

thoughts?

I think it's partly a fascination with the orient, partly because it ties in quite well with other ideas of "spirituality" that are becoming more popular. Why they are coming more popular, I guess perhaps has something to do with disconnection from each other and ourselves. And I guess ways of dealing with that from outside seem more attractive than more boring things that are familiar.

What, reincarnation?

I've always wondered how people who believe in reincarnation explain the discovery of bacteria and other tiny organisms. Are they all reincarnated souls too? In which case very few spirits get to try out this human thing.

Having said that, when I read The Years of Rice and Salt, I liked the idea of being reunited with your soul buddies in the bardo and being born again with each other. In a romantic way rather than a "I'm going to believe it" way.

are you a buddhist?

No he's not, but he did tell me once that it's the only religion I could convert to without being dumped!

(I'm not going to convert to it )

 

[isitme]

I've always wondered how people who believe in reincarnation explain the discovery of bacteria and other tiny organisms. Are they all reincarnated souls too? In which case very few spirits get to try out this human thing.

There's also that question about how since the population keeps growing does this mean that there are more and more souls about or are souls living in more than human at a time etc

 

[Idaho]

I'm suprised no-one has said that there are innumerable flavours of Buddhism - some of which are largely philisophical rather than religious. You could conceivably be a hard core Dawkinsite and be a Buddhist too.

The central principles aren't that weird:

1. Life inevitably involves suffering
2. The origin of suffering is attachment (desire)
3. The cessation of suffering is attainable
4. The path to the cessation of suffering is as following:

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

No mention of a creation myth, of reincarnation, of gods, of magic.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

There's also that question about how since the population keeps growing does this mean that there are more and more souls about or are souls living in more than human at a time etc

Let's not even think about the different rates of reproduction between, say, E Coli bacteria and humans. Or do "lower organisms" share souls?

It's as... outré a concept as transubstantiation or any other weird shit you care to name.

 

[Voley]

I just find it strange how a lot of westeners seem to advocate a theocracy in the name of democracy.

Most of them don't. The Dalai Lama is quite explicit that he wouldn't want to go back to the feudal system that Tibet had before the Chinese invasion. He's even abandoned the idea of the Chinese leaving - he just wants an open debate and reform.

Tibet's the only place I've ever been to that felt genuinely oppressive. It's the only place I ever felt I should be looking over my shoulder just for going about my normal business. That's a daily experience for most Tibetans. They're still a happy bunch when they know no-one's watching, though.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well it's impossible to say given the whole situation

I'm not sticking up for the Chinese tho, I just find it strange how a lot of westeners seem to advocate a theocracy in the name of democracy. I barely know anything about China or Tibet so I shouldn't comment really...

So if the Chinese going into a place with an oppressive system, and making it 'better' is ok, then I guess it's ok for the Americans to do it too.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Sri Lanka? Cambodia?

When I was there, the people of Sri Lanka seemed a lot poorer, and a lot happier, than the average people in India.

 

[isitme]

So if the Chinese going into a place with an oppressive system, and making it 'better' is ok, then I guess it's ok for the Americans to do it too.

I didn't say it's ok, I just said that it would have been and probably would probably be pretty shit under a Buddhist dictatorship

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I didn't say it's ok, I just said that it would have been and probably would probably be pretty shit under a Buddhist dictatorship

You said this

how shit it would have been to live in Tibet under the Dalai Lama compared with how it is under Chinese rule

As in 'better the chinese than the Dalai Lama'.

 

[isitme]

'better the chinese than the Dalai Lama'.

that doesn't say that it's ok tho does it

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

that doesn't say that it's ok tho does it

I guess: only you know what you meant by that sentence.

 

[Idaho]

Buddhism isn't really that relevant to a discussion about the invasion of Tibet and subsequent occupation and absorbtion into Greater China.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

it appeals to me somewhat as it seems to be one of the few religions that seem to promote the type of critical thought that kills religion

逢佛殺佛