Why aren't the left doing better?

[TremulousTetra]

I dont agree that the Left has put Internationalism high on the agenda.I think a huge mistake of the left is how they seem to always react to the media agenda. Israel is on the TV so they concentrate loads on that....But what about other countries that have less of a media spotlight?

you can't really win though can you? You get called elitest when you work on campaign's " working class people are not interested in", and when involved in campaigns which bring thousands of interactivity, "you are jumping the bandwagon".

What really bugs me, and I speak from experience, why are thousands motivated to do something about Israel, but barely anyone is motivated to do something about the minimum wage etc. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand how working 80 hours a week etc., can wear you down. Thatcherism has created a truly passive working class, and it is going to take some shattering events to break it.

 

[Shevek]

I am a member of the Liberal Democrats, although I consider myself to be more of an anarchist. I think it IS possible to build a vibrant, healthy, flourishing left-wing movement. People have discredited ideological debates on this thread but politics is about a battle of ideas. Currently left wing ideas are not in the ascendant but we could build the trade union movements that would undepin them. I would like to see an anarcho-syndicalist trade union movement growing and challenging/taking over the existing trade unions. As other people have mentioned people from various sects of the left work within trade unions and other organisations as social workesr as community workers. I personally think that a good deal of the problem comes down to apathy. People are apathetic, all they care about is their mortgage or their latest car or their next holiday. The anarchist perspective at least poses broader questions about the kind of society we want to live in the control we want over our working lives. As I said before it is a battle of ideas. I think a lot of the left was destroyed by Thatcher and it will take time to rebuild. I think there is also a problem with the English as Orwell observed are prone to apathy and subservience.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

no it fucking doesn't

the left doesn't need a figurehead it needs a cohesive movement based on normal people not one person

What are you on about normal people .How dare you call the left wing that.
We are radicals .Legalise crack and heroin

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

Anyone said 'herding cats' yet?

If not - 'Getting the modern left to work together is like herding cats.'

Its all about money and power.Why do you think there is so many different groups.
They all put their own vested interests befor their communities.
You seen how blatant this was at the recent anti-bnp red white and blue.Each anti-racist group trying to grab the spot light for their group not the collective cause.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

eh? how is left-wing politics any more full of anger and hatred?

How long have you been on urban?

 

[pollypatter]

How long have you been on urban?

lol, not long, true.
actually i thought the Political discussion areas to be pretty calm by comparsion of some other boards I've lurked around.

anyway, apathy is definatley the problem as Shevek said - but I disagree about it being an English thing. I think the internet has a role to play in that, making it easier to be an "arm-chair" activtist. Mostly capitalism though, but that's another thread really.

This song sums up quite well why society is going down the pan I think.

 

[Shevek]

There was an article in Saturday's Guardian called 'The Age of Apathy'. The author identified apathy as an English syndrome. I think it is difficult in Britain as a whole with people addicted to mortgages and consumerism. I think if you believe in something like anarchism you have to fight for it and argue your case

 

[pollypatter]

There was an article in Saturday's Guardian called 'The Age of Apathy'. The author identified apathy as an English syndrome. I think it is difficult in Britain as a whole with people addicted to mortgages and consumerism. I think if you believe in something like anarchism you have to fight for it and argue your case

Yeah but more and more countries are turning to full-on consumerism.

The significance of the left seems to be rapidly disappearing, the world over.

 

[Shevek]

I just think you have to have the best arguments and be willing to adopt new ideas. I am sure it is possible to build a movement

 

[belboid]

There was an article in Saturday's Guardian called 'The Age of Apathy'. The author identified apathy as an English syndrome. I think it is difficult in Britain as a whole with people addicted to mortgages and consumerism. I think if you believe in something like anarchism you have to fight for it and argue your case

it was a dreadful article tho. And a bit badly timed as there were over 100,000 mainly English people demonstrating that day, on less than a weeks notice.

 

[Azrael]

"in short, due process has been attacked..." only makes sense if you believe the 'attack' on due process follows from your previous list. That's why it's 'in short.' Otherwise its simply a completely seperate point.

Not sure what you're trying to show here. At most I've made a minor grammatical error (which I'm not sure about: what's wrong with introducing a fresh point in a summary if I don't think prior elaboration is necessary?) that has no bearing on the substance of my argument.

And the argument about 'left-wing authoritarianism' is simply laughable, considering its all right-wing bullshit, overwhelmingly supported by the tory scumbags.

This is the standard line from the Left, which is why I raised the issue. The Left is clearly capable of authoritarianism, and Labour's authoritairaism fits a left-wing pattern. What exactly is inherently "right-wing" about it, when it follows left-wing assumptions about crime and punishment?

"Right-wing" is just a lazy insult devoid of meaning in this case.

Source?

'The Cuban Revolution : Years of Promise' (2005) by Teo A. Babun and Victor Andres Triay, according to Wikipedia. Guevara panchant for executing people in La Cabaña prison is a matter of historical record.

 

[belboid]

Not sure what you're trying to show here. At most I've made a minor grammatical error (which I'm not sure about: what's wrong with introducing a fresh point in a summary if I don't think prior elaboration is necessary?) that has no bearing on the substance of my argument.

You cant introduce a fresh point into a summary because a summary is meant to, uhh, summarise. Pretty simple really.

This is the standard line from the Left, which is why I raised the issue. The Left is clearly capable of authoritarianism, and Labour's authoritairaism fits a left-wing pattern. What exactly is inherently "right-wing" about it, when it follows left-wing assumptions about crime and punishment?

it doesn't follow 'left-wing assumptions', you haven't given any meaningful evidence for that. Indeed most of labours changes ignore societal impact (despite the occasional bit of rhetoric). All the things you listed the tories would happily have introduced had they been in power at the moment, and only the most naive person would think they wouldn't.

 

[Azrael]

You cant introduce a fresh point into a summary because a summary is meant to, uhh, summarise. Pretty simple really.

Still not sure about this (I didn't list attacks on due process at they're generally accepted round here) but I'll not go on arguing the point, since it has no reflection on the content of my argument.

it doesn't follow 'left-wing assumptions', you haven't given any meaningful evidence for that. Indeed most of labours changes ignore societal impact (despite the occasional bit of rhetoric). All the things you listed the tories would happily have introduced had they been in power at the moment, and only the most naive person would think they wouldn't.

If the combination of an attack on due process with a total uninterested in punishment isn't "meaningful evidence" of left-wing assumptions then I don't know what is.

The Tories may well have followed along the same lines (with variances, I'm extremely doubtful they've have databased innocent people's biometrics) because this thinking has been prevalent amongst both parties for decades. (The Tories, after all, introduced the absurd "Prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse" contention in a 1991 white paper.)

Both parties are woeful: my analysis isn't informed by tribalism.

 

[belboid]

If the combination of an attack on due process with a total uninterested in punishment isn't "meaningful evidence" of left-wing assumptions then I don't know what is.

you clearly dont know what is then.

 

[Azrael]

Go on then, what is it? How exactly is an authoritarian process that shows little interest in punishment "right-wing"?

 

[belboid]

attacks on due process are a recurrent theme of the right - if you want to claim that is evidence for left-wing assumptions you need to show, rather than just assert, it.

And as for Labour having a 'total disinterest in punishment', that's just a figment of your weird imagination.

 

[Azrael]

So you're claiming that I imagined the list of no-punishment policies I posted up?

Have Labour restored hard Labour to the prisons, cleared out the TVs, telephones and narcotics, and made convicts serve their sentence in full? No. They continue to warehouse them. The authoritarian Criminal Justice Act 2003 increased automatic early release, and various Home Secretaries have expressed support for electronic tagging as an alternative to gaol.

Oh yes, and not only have they taken the restoration of capital punishment out of Parliament's hands, they noisily condemn it, even in the case of Saddam Hussein.

"The Right" have frequently placed order above liberty. I don't deny this. But they also punish. And more to the point, English conservatism has traditionally loathed attempts to increase the state's power. Look at the 18th century: hanging parades for minor offences, but also jury trial and no police force.

Labour adopt a left-wing model of authoritarianism. (Just witness all the "ex" communists, Stalinists and Troskyites inhabiting the government.) The silly "right-wing" smears are devoid of evidence.

 

[Prince Rhyus]

This ^^^^

BNP are like

"Bad shite is happening and it's immigrantz! Vote for us and we'll kick 'em out and everything will be gud!"​

The left are like

"We at the Party for Working Socialism are here today to protest against the violent assaults on the rights of the working classes by the evil imperialist capitalist bosses that is currently taking place in the town of Krikeythisisbad, the regional capital of northern Nobigmacistan. We reject the post-marxskyite-pre-structuralist-post-credit-crunchist assertion that religious fundamentalism is the issue for religion is the opium of the masses and that the real cause is the oppression of the working classes by the dictatorship that has the secret backing of the West and other imperialist powers."
​

In those areas where generations have been on benefits, the concept of "working class" for some is completely lost. When Prescott asked someone if they thought they were working class, this girl said she wasn't because she didn't work.

With mainstream parties discredited (look at the turnout) it leaves local politics vulnerable to those who really do shout the loudest.

The candidates on the left who are the most successful are the ones with a strong local presence, who are well known locally and are seen to be making an impact locally.

What a splendid post PR. One of the problems with the Left is that they spend too long talking to themselves and not listening to others other than their converted acolytes.

You really are fantastic.

 

[Kanda]

The left in this country are doing shite cos they all fucking argue with each other and can't join for a common goal.

 

[belboid]

So you're claiming that I imagined the list of no-punishment policies I posted up?

Have Labour restored hard Labour to the prisons, cleared out the TVs, telephones and narcotics, and made convicts serve their sentence in full? No. They continue to warehouse them. The authoritarian Criminal Justice Act 2003 increased automatic early release, and various Home Secretaries have expressed support for electronic tagging as an alternative to gaol.

Oh yes, and not only have they taken the restoration of capital punishment out of Parliament's hands, they noisily condemn it, even in the case of Saddam Hussein.

"The Right" have frequently placed order above liberty. I don't deny this. But they also punish. And more to the point, English conservatism has traditionally loathed attempts to increase the state's power. Look at the 18th century: hanging parades for minor offences, but also jury trial and no police force.

Labour adopt a left-wing model of authoritarianism. (Just witness all the "ex" communists, Stalinists and Troskyites inhabiting the government.) The silly "right-wing" smears are devoid of evidence.

you're a complete bloody loon!

yes, black is white, right is left, and yes means no.

If that load of old tosh is really what you think, well fine, nothing anyone will say will change your mind as your utterly barmy.

 

[Azrael]

you're a complete bloody loon!

yes, black is white, right is left, and yes means no.

If that load of old tosh is really what you think, well fine, nothing anyone will say will change your mind as your utterly barmy.

Descent into ah hominem, arguiment won, etc.

Left-wing thought has its own brand of authoritarianism (witness a stack of "communist" regimes, to give the most blatant example), rooted in the submission of the individual to the collective, and "new" Labour belong to this squalid tradition. "Right-wing" is too often used as a synonymn for "authoritarian" without being challenged: when it is challeged, there's very little to back it up.

The old saying that you can't reason someone out of a position they haven't been reasoned into comes to mind. Ah well.

The Prime Minister made much play last night with the rights of the individual and the dangers of people being ordered about by officials. I entirely agree that people should have the greatest freedom compatible with the freedom of others. There was a time when employers were free to work little children for sixteen hours a day. I remember when employers were free to employ sweated women workers on finishing trousers at a penny halfpenny a pair. There was a time when people were free to neglect sanitation so that thousands died of preventable diseases. For years every attempt to remedy these crying evils was blocked by the same plea of freedom for the individual. It was in fact freedom for the rich and slavery for the poor. Make no mistake, it has only been through the power of the State, given to it by Parliament, that the general public has been protected against the greed of ruthless profit-makers and property owners.

Clement Attlee, 1945

 

[belboid]

No argumewnt won or lost dear boy. It's just that there is absolutely no point arguing with you as you decide what is left wing on the basis of who brought it in, and whether you like it or not. And there's no arguing with that, so I'm not going to wasste my time.

Except to ask if you know what a circular argument is?

 

[Azrael]

Nope, I decide it on a pattern of evidence. Labour are authoritarian, but in a very different way to "right-wing" authoritarians. Their complete uninterest in punishment is a very strong bit of evidence, one you haven't actually disputed.

Since you've not offered a scrap of evidence as to why they're "right-wing", by all means cut and run. Low points for the old "it's so obvious I don't need to spell it out" tactic BTW.

 

[belboid]

Their complete uninterest in punishment is a very strong bit of evidence, one you haven't actually disputed.

Yes I have.

 

[Azrael]

So how have Labour increased punishment with even close to the vigour with which they attack due process?

 

[belboid]

Stop changing the question

Actually, stop bothering with the question. If you wanna discuss that, start another thread on it.

 

[Azrael]

Ah, the old "it's off topic" tactic.

Much as I'm enjoying this bunfight, it's probably disrupting the thread, so I'll call off pies at dawn.

 

[Demosthenes]

What it comes down to is that for you azrael, left-wing means strong state, but for other people, including me, it means anti-capitalist.

Maybe youthink there's some contradiction in the left being anti-capitalist and anti-government, but really, I don't see the problem. If the government wasn't enforcing payment of debts, and wasn't enforcing the rights of landlords, then that would be the end of capitalism.

 

[Azrael]

What it comes down to is that for you azrael, left-wing means strong state, but for other people, including me, it means anti-capitalist.

To clarify, I don't think "left-wing" equals "strong state". Both Left and Right can be statist or libertarian. A definition of "left-wing" is nigh on impossible. (Should we lump together Leninists with Enlightenment philosophers and proto-Marxists like the Diggers or Lollards?) My point is that authoritarians who justify their authoritarianism with Marxist and sub-Marxist thought are left-wing.

Maybe youthink there's some contradiction in the left being anti-capitalist and anti-government, but really, I don't see the problem. If the government wasn't enforcing payment of debts, and wasn't enforcing the rights of landlords, then that would be the end of capitalism.

I've done the libertarian socialism debate to death elsewhere. Suffice to say that I don't think the left is automatically big government; I simply object to the same assumption being made about the Right: such as calling Labour's authoritarian law & order policies "right-wing" without any elaboration.

 

[brasicritique]

if i interpret that badly written comment correctly...

unoriginal

balls, all treelover ever does is whine, and moan about others failing to do what he himself also fails to do. he an utter hypocrite, tho that is at least a little better than just being a straightforwardly right-wing tit like yourself

No all you ever do is whine and attempt to flame treelover always rightly questions the conventional wisdom of the left if indeed such a thing exsists in relation to the issue that you and your comfy pals like fullyplumped ignore on the bright side at least your not denying that your more interested in being middleclass than anything else