Why aren't the left doing better?

[bluestreak]

Cause they're disorganised, schismatic, aren't united round a single manifesto, don't have a leader, and the media won't give them a platform. And you can't move the earth without a fulcrum.

Plus quite a lot of lefties want to get rid of free markets and replace them with a government controlled economy, which is basically a bit of a crap idea.
And for sound ideological reasons a lot of left-wingers can't abide the idea of being anti-immigration, which means they lose out on a lot of possible traction with their natural constituency.

tbh, I reckon with a convincing leader, a manifesto, and the opportunity to publicise it and debate it against the labour and conservative politicians, as if they were the real opposition, they'd convince a lot of people, who aren't happy with the status quo, labour or conservative, but it's a catch 22 situation, - they won't be treated by the media as the real opposition, unless they won enough seats in an election to make them the real opposition, and they can't win enough seats in an election without being publicised by the media as a credible and important political movement. And for some reason there aren't any proper left-wing newspapers, and apparently when there were, they failed.

People are often a bit stupid tbh, and don't care much about what's right, so long as things seem to be Ok.

Nutshell, I reckon.

 

[poster342002]

The Left since the 60s probably has moved further and further away from basic socialism towards a strident form of angry liberalism.

If you look at the Left even in the last few months they have had a huge opportunity to argue against the whole idea of capitalism. A huge opportunity to say CAPITALISM HAS FAILED. Apparently 50% of people fear they may lose their jobs!

Yep. The most golden opportunity for decades and the cod left fumbles around in a circle - falling over with one foot in it's mouth and the other up it's arse.

 

[belboid]

Your fouthmouthed, obnoxious personal abuse is getting well out of order now. It's inexcusable and it's making no point to any discussion you appear on. The only thing it puts across is your own level of immaurity.

well, you can fuck off too Treelover may be a tedious arse, but at least he isn't as utterly dishonest as you.

 

[belboid]

The Left since the 60s probably has moved further and further away from basic socialism towards a strident form of angry liberalism.

If you look at the Left even in the last few months they have had a huge opportunity to argue against the whole idea of capitalism. A huge opportunity to say CAPITALISM HAS FAILED. Apparently 50% of people fear they may lose their jobs! Instead they have once again gone for a bogus form of internationalism and concentrated on trying to pretend they know all about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

I think you can trace this back to the 60s and the socialist review group the IMG etc etc. A basically middle class student movement who believed in some kind of benevolent dictatorship supposedly on behalf of the working class.

the left has always put internationalism high on the agenda, as it recognises that the working-class has no country, and that imperialism has a disastrous affect upon workers 'at home' as well as abroad.

That the left hasn't had an impact in the current crisis is more, imho, to do with the collapse of so-called really existing socialism. The small groups that still exist - some of which still do good propaganda work around saying CAPITALISM HAS FAILED - are just too small to have any impact. With a weakened union movement (is that the fault of 'the left' too?) it's ability to have an impact upon the current crisis is sadly negligible. That's not just the 'hard left' (or cod left as you prefer), but is even more true of the soft reformist left you claim to support. They have had no impact whatsoever, and have absolutely nothing to say.

I do have some sympathy with your comments on being far too studenty tho

 

[belboid]

to you tho baldie (& treelover too, and whatever other soft lefts are out there) why is your brand of 'leftism' also doing so badly? Piece of piss to have a go at the trot types, but where is your alternative? If yours is common sense socialism, why aren't the workers following it? Why have all the soft left groups collapsed? Dont you think that that says something about your brand of socialism?

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

The "Left" aren't doing better because 'left-wing' and 'pro-working class' no longer mean the same thing. The "Left" (which I assume by the op to be those operating on the fringes of the political spectrum) have the image of caring about middle class issues like the environment or foreign affairs/human rights abroad. None of these issues are economic based and none of them particularly help the British working classes, no matter how noble a cause they are (indeed a lot of the environmental issues could be seen as anti working class because they're the ones priced out by these policies). That's not to say the "left" don't care or support working class ideals, they just prioritise the middle class left wing issues above working class left wing issues (but pay lip service to them).

I think the working class feel alienated by these left wing parties that should primarily be campaigning to make working class lives better, but seem to put all their efforts into far away lands or into issues that don't help the working classes.

I'd also say that some of the left movements' attempt to hijack Islamic organisations to bolster their own support has backfired, and it is actually a lot of their groups that ended up being hijacked by Islamic interests instead, which hasn't particularly helped their image in the eyes of the working classes

The left wing is fucked.If a newly left wing person came on this board they would think .We are fucked

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

the vast majority of people have no idea about fringe swappies chanting pro-hezbollah stuff at marches.


many still believe labour to be a socialist party ffs.

The far left is becomming the new Islam for alot

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

My interest in the Left is what is has always been , we need a strong broad left and strong civil society as a bulwark which can defend the vulnerable, the old, the poor, etc against the against the excesses of state power, the market, cuts and now turbo-capitalism, you can leave your Marx, Trotsky, Bukharin, even Chomsky in the library,

befor I came on here in 2001, i didn't even know that much about the intercine battles of the far left, etc, tbh, i wish i didn't know, if we had a broad grouping like the Left party, which balances its pririoties there would be much less criticism from me.

Agree this is what the left should be like .But for that too happen we would have to get differnt people as activists instead of the pro hamas ones.
Left wing is not really left wing these days

 

[Azrael]

The "Left" aren't doing better because 'left-wing' and 'pro-working class' no longer mean the same thing. The "Left" (which I assume by the op to be those operating on the fringes of the political spectrum) have the image of caring about middle class issues like the environment or foreign affairs/human rights abroad. None of these issues are economic based and none of them particularly help the British working classes, no matter how noble a cause they are (indeed a lot of the environmental issues could be seen as anti working class because they're the ones priced out by these policies).

This is exactly the trend that I'm talking about. (Obviously I used different terms.) To give another example, Mark Steel's description of socially conservative miners he encountered, and how he helped "modify" their attitudes into new Left ones.

you will certainly be confused if your analysis is based on a right wing talking point!

its more helpful to look at it in terms of power/privilege, with the right seeking to maintain it (be it white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist or anything else) and the left trying to remove it.

Or alternatively, the Right acknowledge that privilidge is inevitable, and try to make it fairer. (Based on actual ability and not accident of birth.) Grammar schools, much loathed by the Left, follow this logic. (To be fair the aristocratic wing of the Tories are utterly indifferent about them as well.)

 

[belboid]

Grammar schools, much loathed by the Left, follow this logic.

No, they didn't. they helped to keep the class system just the way it was, deciding children were failures at 11. It had nothing to do with genuine 'merit'

 

[Azrael]

The working class children who passed the Eleven Plus would dispute that appraisal.

Your response is exactly what I'm talking about. Accepting that inequality of outcome can be just is, as a rule, anathema to those on the Left.

 

[Fullyplumped]

or to put it another way oh look its fullyplumped spinning the newshamebore message and reminding us all that we should all get involved in credit unions to help the government charge massive interest on social loans to the poorest or even better telling us that we should all just vote nushamebore as they are soooooooooooooooooooooooo left wing

If it helps, I don't think brasicritique should get involved in his/her local credit union.

 

[Fullyplumped]

... are you only ever going to snipe and sneer?, i am getting tired of it, its not just me, you viscerally attack anyone who disagrees with you. Its making posting on the boards a chore, not a pleasure. We have different views on the IP issues, (although i have made it clear i think what Isreal is doing is abomination), migration, and the trajectorty of the left, get over it. Issues on P/P. should be open to debate and discussion, not abuse, vitriol, etc and the answering of substantive points, not personal attacks. I suggest you take a break, or decide to engange in open (if robust) but cordial political discussion.

THis was directed at one particular poster but it could be directed with justice at many.

The foulness of personal insult directed at people with whom there is a disagreement must put off many perfectly sensible people with time to offer and a desire to change the world.

Why should anyone work alongside the signficant proportion of activists who have such little self control that they cannot keep their personal frustrations and anxieties in check when someone says something they disagree with? It's sheer self-indulgence. The wonder is that anyone stays involved in such an environment for more than a few days.

 

[mk12]

Why aren't the left doing better?

Because they have no relevance to 99% of people's lives.

 

[isitme]

what a surprise lol

a thread about why the left aren't doing better descends into sectarianism

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

I think its down to anger and frustations. I've been on here every day for last couple of weeks .and I feel full of hatred .Its strange really .It seems like left wing politics is about anger and hatred .Or should I say left wing people.
I need a rest from U75 {get rid of this negativity}

 

[greenman]

So basically, according to people on here, if the "middle class" left (90% of it?) were just to retire, or adopt right wing anti-welfare, anti-immigration, anti-ecological, nationalist- mercantilist ideas or whatever , then suddenly the British Working Class would discover itself and sweep away our rulers to initiate the socialist utopia, eh?
Pillocks.
The problem is not the "middle class", or "left-liberalism" or the Guardian ffs, the problem is the ideological, material and psychological hegemony of so-called "free market" capitalism, reactionary nationalism and knee-jerk populism (ironically or not, all well represented on this thread). The problem is you....

My prediction? The rapid concentrating of minds and re-ordering of forces once the cold winds of the global depression meet the decadent and enfeebled social and political conditions of UK plc.

That will sort out the keyboard blusterers from the fighters, I tell ye.

 

[DotCommunist]

what a surprise lol

a thread about why the left aren't doing better descends into sectarianism

I am astonished tbf

 

[belboid]

The working class children who passed the Eleven Plus would dispute that appraisal.

Your response is exactly what I'm talking about. Accepting that inequality of outcome can be just is, as a rule, anathema to those on the Left.

writing people off at 11, way to go.

But sod having another discussion about how bad grammar schools were, the old one is still around for people to see what nonsense you talked.

 

[belboid]

THis was directed at one particular poster but it could be directed with justice at many.

The foulness of personal insult directed at people with whom there is a disagreement must put off many perfectly sensible people with time to offer and a desire to change the world.

Why should anyone work alongside the signficant proportion of activists who have such little self control that they cannot keep their personal frustrations and anxieties in check when someone says something they disagree with? It's sheer self-indulgence. The wonder is that anyone stays involved in such an environment for more than a few days.

this isn't reality chuck, its a small internet board. Only a fool would make any kind of judgement about 'the left' (or any other group) based upon what is said in places like this.

In real life, I am charm personified, and you might be a reasonable human being, rather than a smug patronising oaf. But that's very boring on here, even more boring than certain posters who only post the same comment time after time after time. Such is life.

 

[Azrael]

So basically, according to people on here, if the "middle class" left (90% of it?) were just to retire, or adopt right wing anti-welfare, anti-immigration, anti-ecological, nationalist- mercantilist ideas or whatever , then suddenly the British Working Class would discover itself and sweep away our rulers to initiate the socialist utopia, eh?

Well, personally I didn't draw the middle/working class distinction as I don't accept the Marxist definitions of class.

Actually, I said a certain brand of left-wing ideas (the cultural Left, to use that horribly clunky phrase) has done well. Amazingly well, in fact; in addition to central government, it dominates establishment institutions such as the universities, the BBC, the law, and the vast network of Quangos and state organisations such as the NHS, police and social services.

I am rather curious as to why people who self-identify as left-wing don't make more of this colossal sea-change. Maybe a key plank of left-wing thought is to imagine oneself as fighting against oppression and authority. (Witness Mr Castro wearing tailored fatigues decades after the revolution.) Accepting that certain of your views are now received wisdom doesn't sit well with that instinct.

 

[belboid]

Well, personally I didn't draw the middle/working class distinction as I don't accept the Marxist definitions of class.

Actually, I said a certain brand of left-wing ideas (the cultural Left, to use that horribly clunky phrase) has done well. Amazingly well, in fact; in addition to central government, it dominates establishment institutions such as the universities, the BBC, the law, and the vast network of Quangos and state organisations such as the NHS, police and social services.

I am rather curious as to why people who self-identify as left-wing don't make more of this colossal sea-change. Maybe a key plank of left-wing thought is to imagine oneself as fighting against oppression and authority. (Witness Mr Castro wearing tailored fatigues decades after the revolution.) Accepting that certain of your views are now received wisdom doesn't sit well with that instinct.

But the left is proud, and regularly points out, how much of the fight against racism, sexism and homophobia has been won. And we point to just how those fights were won. We also point out that those gains are by no means permanent and can be reversed (eg the rise of BNP and racism, more and more obvious sexism in the media etc), not to mention the fact that they were never entirely won for all people either. those that dominate the institutions you mention were just the middle class ones, who have (generally) stopped bothering to fight to extend those gains throughout society (eg, you might get some women in top jobs in the media etc - tho not that many - but the overall disparity between men and women's wages is barely changed from when equal pay legislation was brought in)

 

[Azrael]

writing people off at 11, way to go.

But sod having another discussion about how bad grammar schools were, the old one is still around for people to see what nonsense you talked.

Actually I agree, let's not turn this thread into a debate on grammar schools.

Before I drop the matter, I will add this: the debate is frequently an unimaginative bombardment between supporters of comprehensives and grammars. I don't pretend that the old system is the only alternative. The Eleven Plus was a clunky, often cruel procedure. Mistakes were made. Doubtless bright children were allocated to the wrong school. (Although there was a Thirteen Plus to remedy this, the damage could have been done by then.) I'm sure a better alternative could be created.

The key point is that selection by academic merit be accepted on principle; its form could then be open for debate.

 

[Azrael]

But the left is proud, and regularly points out, how much of the fight against racism, sexism and homophobia has been won. And we point to just how those fights were won. We also point out that those gains are by no means permanent and can be reversed (eg the rise of BNP and racism, more and more obvious sexism in the media etc), not to mention the fact that they were never entirely won for all people either. those that dominate the institutions you mention were just the middle class ones, who have (generally) stopped bothering to fight to extend those gains throughout society (eg, you might get some women in top jobs in the media etc - tho not that many - but the overall disparity between men and women's wages is barely changed from when equal pay legislation was brought in)

The extent of the victory is massively underestimated. It's not just in matters of bigotry against homosexuals and ethnic minorities that the Left has triumphed: the conservative morality of our forefathers has been swept away. Just compare establishment attitudes to criminals to those of yesteryear. Even Labour's infamous authoritarian slogan, "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime", is underpinned by left-wing thinking. (Crime is a social problem, not a matter of individual wrongdoing.)

You list ways in which victory is far from total, and you're right. But what has been achieved is monumental. Homosexuals have gone from being criminals to having total legal equality (bar semantics over the word marriage) and people who disapprove of homosexual acts threatened themselves threatened with the law.

We live in a completely different world.

 

[belboid]

Attitude to criminals has changed? Really? Not in law it hasn't. Nor really amongst the establishment, as far as I can see. I dont think most individuals' attitude has changed particularly either. A labour slogan is just that, a slogan - and dont forget that they were using it to point out that they weren't old lefties who just talked about the causes of crime. The promotion of 'individual responsibility' and individualism is now far greater than it was between '45 and the seventies.

Gay rights have come a long way, but there is no reason at all to think they cant swing right back again.

 

[Azrael]

Attitude to criminals has changed? Really? Not in law it hasn't. Nor really amongst the establishment, as far as I can see. I dont think most individuals' attitude has changed particularly either. A labour slogan is just that, a slogan - and dont forget that they were using it to point out that they weren't old lefties who just talked about the causes of crime. The promotion of 'individual responsibility' and individualism is now far greater than it was between '45 and the seventies.

Convicts are now released automatically after serving between half and one-third of their sentence. Governors are under no obligation to punish convicts under their charge. Police have been stripped of the power even to chage suspects. The establishment treats weapons as evil, rather than the thugs who whield them. Parliament "accidentally" gave up the power to restore hanging.

In short, due process has been attacked, but absolutely no effort has been made to adequately punish properly convicted persons.

Gay rights have come a long way, but there is no reason at all to think they cant swing right back again.

Well hypothetically they could, but this thread is about why the Left isn't doing better, not that their gains could, theoretically, be undone.

With no major political party offering a moral condemnation of homosexuality, I don't see any immediate prospect for a roll-back.

 

[belboid]

Convicts are now released automatically after serving between half and one-third of their sentence. Governors are under no obligation to punish convicts under their charge. Police have been stripped of the power even to chage suspects. The establishment treats weapons as evil, rather than the thugs who whield them. Parliament "accidentally" gave up the power to restore hanging.

In short, due process has been attacked, but absolutely no effort has been made to adequately punish properly convicted persons.

what a lot of nonsense.

 

[bluestreak]

Billy Bragg and Tony Robinson.

fail, tony robinson is new labour, looooser!

 

[bluestreak]

what a surprise lol

a thread about why the left aren't doing better descends into sectarianism

no bookie would have taken the bet.

 

[Azrael]

what a lot of nonsense.

Are you claiming my description of the criminal law is factually incorrect?