Why aren't the left doing better?

[Fullyplumped]

If the left does not get back community action it will be too late.
The bnp are becomming more and more involved in their communities at the grass roots level.
Theres still time to turn it around but Im afraid we wont . We are too busy protesting about what we dont want instead of building what we do want.

I think that's completely correct.

It would be a wonderful thing if all the cadres, provisional central committees and other ridiculous structures dissolved themselves and the people involved applied themselves to working for change in the communities in which they lived - especially in things like credit unions and co-ops and such where their bureaucratic skills could be of value. I wouldn't rule out getting involved in local churches, synagogues, mosques and the like, or Scouts and Guides and the like. It would be miraculous if, in doing so, anyone who had held a "position" in any of these groupuscules declined to take office in community groups for three years, and just got on with it.

A left that emerged from that kind of experience would be immensely richer and more capable and credible than the bunch of amateur Napoleons we have right now.

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

I think that's completely correct.

It would be a wonderful thing if all the cadres, provisional central committees and other ridiculous structures dissolved themselves and the people involved applied themselves to working for change in the communities in which they lived - especially in things like credit unions and co-ops and such where their bureaucratic skills could be of value. I wouldn't rule out getting involved in local churches, synagogues, mosques and the like, or Scouts and Guides and the like. It would be miraculous if, in doing so, anyone who had held a "position" in any of these groupuscules declined to take office in community groups for three years, and just got on with it.

A left that emerged from that kind of experience would be immensely richer and more capable and credible than the bunch of amateur Napoleons we have right now.

This is the way farward.But the left now is just many different tribal groups all wanting power for themselves.Instead of their community
It would be great if the left just started building their communities up again instead of the bnp doing it.
All I can say is you have all been warned dont complain in 10 years time.

 

[Wolveryeti]

I would vote for a leftist party that managed to disentangle its commitment to equality of opportunity (which I support) from a generalised desire to control people's behaviour more.

 

[Fullyplumped]

This is the way farward.But the left now is just many different tribal groups all wanting power for themselves.Instead of their community
It would be great if the left just started building their communities up again instead of the bnp doing it.
All I can say is you have all been warned dont complain in 10 years time.

I hadn't been thinking of the BNP infiltrating community groups, but of course if significantly more lefties were to play a proper part in the life of the community it would displace the BNP.

 

[JHE]

The reason socialists are doing badly is that there is not currently a plausible account of a desirable and feasible socialism.

For much of the 20th century, there was a substantial minority who sincerely believed in one form or another of socialism (social democratic or Leninist forms mainly): public ownership, planning, production for need and egalitarianism to replace private ownership and the market. Now there isn't.

It's true that what Azrael calls the "cultural left" is in the ascendancy at the moment, at least in many institutions, but that has little or no connection with any socialist programme.

 

[Xipe Totec]

the struggle against capitalism has been like fighting a gnarly old brute of a boxer.
after pounding away at the poor in the 19th century, he was shocked when they started to fight back with powerful blows straight to sensitive areas.

so he soaked up the digs with social democracy, and since the 70s he's on the offensive again with neoliberalism
(also during the last round he dipped his gloves with an irritant - globalisation - so his opponant cant see clearly)

fortunately he has an dodgy knee and theres a void where his heart should be; with a bit of a surge we can land a few telling uppercuts...

 

[treelover]

also during the last round he dipped his gloves with an irritant - globalisation - so his opponant cant see clearly

Care to expand on the bit, X?

 

[Prince Rhyus]

I hadn't been thinking of the BNP infiltrating community groups, but of course if significantly more lefties were to play a proper part in the life of the community it would displace the BNP.

This ^^^^

BNP are like

"Bad shite is happening and it's immigrantz! Vote for us and we'll kick 'em out and everything will be gud!"​

The left are like

"We at the Party for Working Socialism are here today to protest against the violent assaults on the rights of the working classes by the evil imperialist capitalist bosses that is currently taking place in the town of Krikeythisisbad, the regional capital of northern Nobigmacistan. We reject the post-marxskyite-pre-structuralist-post-credit-crunchist assertion that religious fundamentalism is the issue for religion is the opium of the masses and that the real cause is the oppression of the working classes by the dictatorship that has the secret backing of the West and other imperialist powers."
​

In those areas where generations have been on benefits, the concept of "working class" for some is completely lost. When Prescott asked someone if they thought they were working class, this girl said she wasn't because she didn't work.

With mainstream parties discredited (look at the turnout) it leaves local politics vulnerable to those who really do shout the loudest.

The candidates on the left who are the most successful are the ones with a strong local presence, who are well known locally and are seen to be making an impact locally.

 

[Azrael]

The thing is current economics stems from evolution rather than design, and that's why it's pretty fucked up. Our economic system exists as the most successful systems for growth in a world that seemed large enough that we'd never run out of space to grow into, and so was for practical purposes infinite. Quite literally, economic systems geared for growth outcompeted economic systems not geared towards growth. Unfortunately, it is a finite world, and so now we need to redesign our economic system for sustainability, and try to engineer them so that it's not an economic catastrophe when the economy stops growing.

Leaving aside the arguments about whether capitalism needs growth to function, and whether growth can be transferred to qualitatively different areas, capitalism's success against command economies (of varying degrees) just shows that it's more effective than the alternatives.

My attitude to capitalism is summed up by Churchill's quote about democracy being the worst system ever tried, apart from all the others. I don't waste time disputing capitalism's many flaws; I merely suggest that we haven't come up with anything better, for the reason that theoretical economic systems designed in advance tend not to work very well.

I have no doubt that capitalism will evolve, quite possibly in the way you describe. Yes, it's messy and quite possibly "fucked up". I do however doubt that there exists a viable alternative.

 

[belboid]

The cultural Left are ...pro-EU

really? I was under the impression most of the left still saw the EU as a capitalist market, designed to protect the interests of the rich west at the explicit expense of the 'third world'.

 

[belboid]

This is the Lecturers union internal activist bulletin, doesn't it speak volumes about the priorities of much of the Left

'Exciting news! Have a look at today’s UCU Activists List digest:

1. FW: Association of University Teachers in Gaza calls for BDS
2. Re: Crisis in Gaza
3. Jenna Delich was right to take down Harry’s Place
4. Fw: Support Karen Reissmann: 8.15 - 9.30am, Monday 26 Jan, first day of ET, support rally, corner of Bridge St / Parsonage St, Legal Defence Fund, Fundraising Social, Friday 23 Jan, 8pm to late
5. The debate on Gaza
6. who broke the ceasefire
7. Re: The debate on Gaza
8. RE: who broke the ceasefire
9. RE: who broke the ceasefire
10. RE: who broke the ceasefire
11. Fwd: Gaza: Why you should demonstrate on 10 January
12. Re: who broke the ceasefire
13. RE: Fwd: Gaza: Why you should demonstrate on 10 January
14. RE: who broke the ceasefire
15. Demo on Saturday - please read
16. Re: Demo on Saturday - please read
17. RE: Crisis in Gaza
18. Re: Demo on Saturday - please read
19. Re: Demo on Saturday - please read'

oh god, how terrible! lecturers interests on one day concern, uhhh, the main topic of the news. What a bunch of wankers.

 

[Azrael]

really? I was under the impression most of the left still saw the EU as a capitalist market, designed to protect the interests of the rich west at the explicit expense of the 'third world'.

The economic Left, quite possibly.

This disagreement over terms is largely why debate between the Right and Left is reduced to bombardment. Put crudely, the Left concern themselves with economics and the Right with culture. ("Culture wars" etc.) As we appear to have a free market hegemony, the traditional Left say the Right is triumphant. (I'd argue that we actually have a masked mixed-economy, but that's by the by.)

From a conservative point of view, however, our culture has been transformed along "new Left" lines. Hence the frustration at allegations of a "right-wing" hegemony.

Basically, the split cannot be reduced to economic terms. This is why I find the labels "Left" and "Right" more confusing than helpful.

 

[Xipe Totec]

Care to expand on the bit, X?

its just an allusion to the massive confusion about where we should stand on many of issues that arise from a globalised landscape.
(immigration is a great example of this)

obviously globalisation itself has many more features worthy of study and debate than leftist self-questioning in relation to it, but this is the only aspect that fits into the boxing metaphor

Basically, the split cannot be reduced to economic terms. This is why I find the labels "Left" and "Right" more confusing than helpful.

you will certainly be confused if your analysis is based on a right wing talking point!

its more helpful to look at it in terms of power/privilege, with the right seeking to maintain it (be it white supremacist, patriarchal, capitalist or anything else) and the left trying to remove it.

 

[brasicritique]

I think that's completely correct.

It would be a wonderful thing if all the cadres, provisional central committees and other ridiculous structures dissolved themselves and the people involved applied themselves to working for change in the communities in which they lived - especially in things like credit unions and co-ops and such where their bureaucratic skills could be of value. I wouldn't rule out getting involved in local churches, synagogues, mosques and the like, or Scouts and Guides and the like. It would be miraculous if, in doing so, anyone who had held a "position" in any of these groupuscules declined to take office in community groups for three years, and just got on with it.

A left that emerged from that kind of experience would be immensely richer and more capable and credible than the bunch of amateur Napoleons we have right now.

or to put it another way oh look its fullyplumped spinning the newshamebore message and reminding us all that we should all get involved in credit unions to help the government charge massive interest on social loans to the poorest or even better telling us that we should all just vote nushamebore as they are soooooooooooooooooooooooo left wing

 

[brasicritique]

This is the way farward.But the left now is just many different tribal groups all wanting power for themselves.Instead of their community
It would be great if the left just started building their communities up again instead of the bnp doing it.
All I can say is you have all been warned dont complain in 10 years time.

fullyplumpeds point is not about building up working class communitees it is about getting them to vote neshamebore using religous organisations and conforming to a wider political neo con status quo - well heres the flaw fullypumped care to explain what you think the exact number of bnp voters who go to a synagog or a mosque or church are

 

[brasicritique]

oh god, how terrible! lecturers interests on one day concern, uhhh, the main topic of the news. What a bunch of wankers.

maybe if you had even a miligram of honest leftism is in you you would realise how stupid you look and what a highly valid wider point treelover is making as treelover ever does while your still sucking up to your middleclass as to this thread imo the left is just full of middleclass students who do it for a year and working class middleclass wanabees of which urban has no end these days

 

[brasicritique]

Middlclass poster supposedly leftist flames working class poster for no reason

 

[belboid]

as treelover ever does

if i interpret that badly written comment correctly...

balls, all treelover ever does is whine, and moan about others failing to do what he himself also fails to do. he an utter hypocrite, tho that is at least a little better than just being a straightforwardly right-wing tit like yourself

 

[CyberRose]

The "Left" aren't doing better because 'left-wing' and 'pro-working class' no longer mean the same thing. The "Left" (which I assume by the op to be those operating on the fringes of the political spectrum) have the image of caring about middle class issues like the environment or foreign affairs/human rights abroad. None of these issues are economic based and none of them particularly help the British working classes, no matter how noble a cause they are (indeed a lot of the environmental issues could be seen as anti working class because they're the ones priced out by these policies). That's not to say the "left" don't care or support working class ideals, they just prioritise the middle class left wing issues above working class left wing issues (but pay lip service to them).

I think the working class feel alienated by these left wing parties that should primarily be campaigning to make working class lives better, but seem to put all their efforts into far away lands or into issues that don't help the working classes.

I'd also say that some of the left movements' attempt to hijack Islamic organisations to bolster their own support has backfired, and it is actually a lot of their groups that ended up being hijacked by Islamic interests instead, which hasn't particularly helped their image in the eyes of the working classes

 

[DotCommunist]

the vast majority of people have no idea about fringe swappies chanting pro-hezbollah stuff at marches.


many still believe labour to be a socialist party ffs.

 

[treelover]

Belboid are you only ever going to snipe and sneer?, i am getting tired of it, its not just me, you viscerally attack anyone who disagrees with you. Its making posting on the boards a chore, not a pleasure. We have different views on the IP issues, (although i have made it clear i think what Isreal is doing is abomination), migration, and the trajectorty of the left, get over it. Issues on P/P. should be open to debate and discussion, not abuse, vitriol, etc and the answering of substantive points, not personal attacks. I suggest you take a break, or decide to engange in open (if robust) but cordial political discussion.

I would also hope the Mods take a much closer look at P/P for some of the serious 'accusations' that are made on here, often without foundation.

 

[Spion]

Belboid are you only ever going to snipe and sneer

Stones. Glass houses. Etc. Take a good look at yourself here, man

 

[belboid]

Most people dont know anything about the left at all, all they hear is vague stuff in the press, occasionally, and from right-wingers (from labour to the BNP) who repeat the kinda stuff just posted.

Most actual working-class people (as opposed to politico's, who may or may not be from a w-c background) I met when an 'active lefty' would say that the far left was just a waste of time, cos socialism is dead, aint we seen russia didnt work? The 'arguments' re being too middle-class never got a single airing, they are only of concern to ex-lefties like those on here.

 

[belboid]

Belboid are you only ever going to snipe and sneer?, i am getting tired of it, its not just me, you viscerally attack anyone who disagrees with you. Its making posting on the boards a chore, not a pleasure. We have different views on the IP issues, (although i have made it clear i think what Isreal is doing is abomination), migration, and the trajectorty of the left, get over it. Issues on P/P. should be open to debate and discussion, not abuse, vitriol, etc and the answering of substantive points, not personal attacks. I suggest you take a break, or decide to engange in open (if robust) but cordial political discussion.

I would also hope the Mods take a much closer look at P/P for some of the serious 'accusations' that are made on here, often without foundation.

Oh you hypocritical little turd. Please do fuck off, its what you normally do after all.

In case you hadn't noticed, its not only me who thinks you're a whingeing little shit, full of blather, without the bottle to actually answer any criticisms made of your ignorant, bullshit based nonsense.

 

[treelover]

My interest in the Left is what is has always been , we need a strong broad left and strong civil society as a bulwark which can defend the vulnerable, the old, the poor, etc against the against the excesses of state power, the market, cuts and now turbo-capitalism, you can leave your Marx, Trotsky, Bukharin, even Chomsky in the library,

befor I came on here in 2001, i didn't even know that much about the intercine battles of the far left, etc, tbh, i wish i didn't know, if we had a broad grouping like the Left party, which balances its pririoties there would be much less criticism from me.

 

[Fruitloop]

If you throw out everything from Marx to Chomsky, what does the Left actually consist of?

 

[Spion]

My interest in the Left is what is has always been , we need a strong broad left and strong civil society as a bulwark which can defend the vulnerable, the old, the poor, etc against the against the excesses of state power, the market, cuts and now turbo-capitalism, you can leave your Marx, Trotsky, Bukharin, even Chomsky in the library, .

What is true in what you say is that actual practice is worth far far more than theory alone. But practice will always be directionless if there's no understanding behind it.

You esentially identify yourself as a left reformist, but I believe without a good understanding of this social system and it's place in history you'll always be drawing your theory, the underpinnings of your politics - and you do have some even if it is not something you recognise - from the current state of the movement, such as it is.

And that's inadequate, IMO. I know you dislike the far left - you think it's somehow false and not of the w/c - and you dismiss Marx etc, but these people *are* the history of the w/c movement. They engaged and did things and learned lessons, many of which are very valuable to us. The were fighting the same enemy and what they learned needs ot be updated for contemporary conditions.

 

[tbaldwin]

The "Left" aren't doing better because 'left-wing' and 'pro-working class' no longer mean the same thing. The "Left" (which I assume by the op to be those operating on the fringes of the political spectrum) have the image of caring about middle class issues like the environment or foreign affairs/human rights abroad. None of these issues are economic based and none of them particularly help the British working classes, no matter how noble a cause they are (indeed a lot of the environmental issues could be seen as anti working class because they're the ones priced out by these policies). That's not to say the "left" don't care or support working class ideals, they just prioritise the middle class left wing issues above working class left wing issues (but pay lip service to them).

I think the working class feel alienated by these left wing parties that should primarily be campaigning to make working class lives better, but seem to put all their efforts into far away lands or into issues that don't help the working classes.

I'd also say that some of the left movements' attempt to hijack Islamic organisations to bolster their own support has backfired, and it is actually a lot of their groups that ended up being hijacked by Islamic interests instead, which hasn't particularly helped their image in the eyes of the working classes

The Left since the 60s probably has moved further and further away from basic socialism towards a strident form of angry liberalism.

If you look at the Left even in the last few months they have had a huge opportunity to argue against the whole idea of capitalism. A huge opportunity to say CAPITALISM HAS FAILED. Apparently 50% of people fear they may lose their jobs! Instead they have once again gone for a bogus form of internationalism and concentrated on trying to pretend they know all about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

I think you can trace this back to the 60s and the socialist review group the IMG etc etc. A basically middle class student movement who believed in some kind of benevolent dictatorship supposedly on behalf of the working class.

 

[DownwardDog]

If you throw out everything from Marx to Chomsky, what does the Left actually consist of?

Billy Bragg and Tony Robinson.

 

[poster342002]

Oh you hypocritical little turd. Please do fuck off, its what you normally do after all.

In case you hadn't noticed, its not only me who thinks you're a whingeing little shit, full of blather, without the bottle to actually answer any criticisms made of your ignorant, bullshit based nonsense.

Your fouthmouthed, obnoxious personal abuse is getting well out of order now. It's inexcusable and it's making no point to any discussion you appear on. The only thing it puts across is your own level of immaturity.