Why aren't the left doing better?
- Thread starter Skimix
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scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
They're not doing well because there is no major left-wing party at all. I remember hearing this years ago, when Kinnock was leader, about it being a choice between different kinds of right-wing (I got into politics at a very young age), but now the Labour party of the eighties would seem to veer so far left it made an acute angle.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
pretty much all the veiled comments are. And the idea that those 'facts' you have stated amount to an attack on 'due process' is sheer tosh
on the upside i'm left wing and i've done ok 
I do think that people always get this fucked up tho
like the left will never win an election, but look at the plight of the people who chase elections, i mean do we really really want a genuine left wing prime minister? what will that achieve?
this may sound flippant and frightfully middle class to a lot of people, but a lot of my friends in newcastle do shit like social work or care work and they also participate in their community and use the fact that they are priveledged enough to have jobs and optimism to help out the local community, i think that is why urban was set up in the olden days that is the future of the left for me, rebuilding communities, not getting an old labour prime minister
I do think that people always get this fucked up tho
like the left will never win an election, but look at the plight of the people who chase elections, i mean do we really really want a genuine left wing prime minister? what will that achieve?
this may sound flippant and frightfully middle class to a lot of people, but a lot of my friends in newcastle do shit like social work or care work and they also participate in their community and use the fact that they are priveledged enough to have jobs and optimism to help out the local community, i think that is why urban was set up in the olden days
that is the future of the left for me, rebuilding communities, not getting an old labour prime minister
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
on the upside i'm left wing and i've done ok
I do think that people always get this fucked up tho
like the left will never win an election, but look at the plight of the people who chase elections, i mean do we really really want a genuine left wing prime minister? what will that achieve?
The NHS, for a start. I know, it was a long time ago, but it happened.
oh no doubt has the left wing shaped this country as we know it
but I don't mean parliment as in the 1950s, i mean as in today
if the left was ever going to have an effect through parliment then 1997 was the time when labour had the most powerful government for about 50 years and the country was backing them, but they ended up further right than a most right wing politicians, so in the here and now I don't have much belief in a left wing prime minister sorting it out
we do have to wait and see what obama does in america and if he really delivers anything, but that kind of says it all about 'democracy' for me
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
You misunderstand. I'm not claiming that Labour's utter failure to properly punish convicts is an attack on due process; I'm claiming that they've attacked due process while simultaneously failing to punish, suggesting that their priorities are skewed and their "tough on crime" rhetoric is no proof of conservatism.
Xipe Totec
Drexciyan
the fuck?
this may sound flippant and frightfully middle class to a lot of people, but a lot of my friends in newcastle do shit like social work or care work and they also participate in their community and use the fact that they are priveledged enough to have jobs and optimism to help out the local community, i think that is why urban was set up in the olden days
Hear us then: we know.
You are our enemy. This is why we shall
Now put you in front of a wall. But in consideration
of your merits and good qualities
We shall put you in front of a good wall and shoot you
With a good bullet from a good gun and bury you
With a good shovel in the good earth.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
I think you may be looking on the Labour party with shit-coloured lenses. Yes, they are totally messed up now, but they are definitely not further right than most right-wing politicians. Have you looked at Tory policies lately, or at their shadow cabinet's political backgrounds?
Despite the ways they've failed, I'm so, so glad Labour won the 1997 election. Hell, I'm a working-class lesbian single parent with a disability - all I need to do is uncover a non-white in my family tree and I win the PC lottery - and I am absolutely certain that I've fared better under Labour than I would have under the Tories. Much better.
you can't just reply with a poem 
i am completely disillusioned with parliment and i think my well meaning friends have done more good by being well meaning than any politician in my lifetime has
tell me why i'm wrong, really like, i am still learning. i don't believe in politicians but i do believe in people doing a little bit of good
i am completely disillusioned with parliment and i think my well meaning friends have done more good by being well meaning than any politician in my lifetime has
tell me why i'm wrong, really like, i am still learning. i don't believe in politicians but i do believe in people doing a little bit of good
in 2001 the labour party refused to help the democrats with their election campaign for the first time in about 30 years, it was about the same time that they let the bank of england control interest rates and sold all the country's gold (to later give to the banks as some sort of gift) basically the labour party was incredibly powerful in those days and they just took cocaine and laughed at us
I doubt the tory's would have acted any differently, but that isn't the point, labour will never ever be so powerful again, it was last chance saloon the left wing in parliment and it turned out horribly
if you look at labour 1997 to 2008 thet have been worse than thatcher in a lot of ways
2 wars, a recession, shit like knives, drinking drugs on the up, more cars, nhs and schools continue to decline
the fact that the tories would have been worse doesn't let them off
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
If I have time I'll respond to the rest tomorrow.
But the bolded bit - you said they were more right-wing than the most right-wing politicans out there. That's what I disagree with.
They're still the most left-wing electable party. The Libs had a chance, but fucked it up. The Greens are too single policy (or seen as such) and don't stand in enough boroughs. The SWP are loonspuds that most people haven't heard of. Respect got one MP in who managed to be the worst MP in history; even if you weren't his constituent, you'd know that he wore a catsuit on Big Brother.
When it comes to voting, there is nobody Left, left.
Well looking back, I think that New Labour was nothing to do with the left at all
ok maybe it was a bit over the top to call them more right wing than the right (sometimes I forget just how right wing the right really is lol)
but new labour was nothing to do with the left wing imo, have you noticed that blair is back on the news recently being tony blair, celebrity politician/president of the world
those other left wing parties you mentioned are like you said pathetic, although I have always had time for the lib dems tbh, specially since they aren't actually left wing they have just stuck to being wooly liberals and they becom left wing because everything shifted right
no it fucking doesn't
the left doesn't need a figurehead it needs a cohesive movement based on normal people not one person
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No, I understand perfectly well. the idea that they have attacked 'due process' is complete and utter horseshit. As for 'failure to punish', that's an even dafter statement, and a rather stupid one considering how full the jails are (and dont try and tell me that brit jails are now holiday resorts)
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
You're seriously denying that measures such as holding people for a month without charge, ASBOs, interning foreigners in Belmash Gaol and then imposing control orders, and databasing innocent people's biometrics, aren't attacks on due process?
What about Labour's repeated attempts to limit trial by jury? Or evidence-free search and seizure under the Terrorism Act 2000?
I've posted many times that our gaols are squalid, lawless slums ruled by the most violent inmates. This is precisely because reforms to remove "harsh" discipline have turned them from houses of correction into purposeless warehouses, and the vacuum has been filled by something worse. They're horrible, but in the wrong way.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
well those facts are completely different to your initial argument for how labour is attacking due process. Of course they are, but your initial list wasn't. This one utterly contradicts your point, imo.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
To clear up the due process thing a second time, my first post wasn't a list of attacks on due process; it was a list of Labour's failure to punish convicts. I raised the attacks on due process in the final paragraph to contrast Labour's "tough" rhetoric with the reality.
My point is simply that Labour's "tough on crime" rhetoric is used by their left-wing opposition to show how "right-wing" Labour are, but Labour's "toughness" actually takes on a thoroughly left-wing form. (Crime is a disease to be cured, not a choice to be punished.) Labour are left-wing authoritarians, who traditionally distain due process. As Ernesto Guevara put it: "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail."
The spiritual predecessor of John Reid, who said, "It cannot be right that the rights of an individual suspected terrorist be placed above the rights, life and limb of the British people. It's wrong. Full stop. No ifs. No buts. It's just plain wrong."
Individuals must be sacrificed to the collective. Again, left-wing authoritarianism.
I've not contradicted myself at all here.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
"in short, due process has been attacked..." only makes sense if you believe the 'attack' on due process follows from your previous list. That's why it's 'in short.' Otherwise its simply a completely seperate point.
And the argument about 'left-wing authoritarianism' is simply laughable, considering its all right-wing bullshit, overwhelmingly supported by the tory scumbags.
And the argument about 'left-wing authoritarianism' is simply laughable, considering its all right-wing bullshit, overwhelmingly supported by the tory scumbags.
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
Source?
I dont agree that the Left has put Internationalism high on the agenda.I think a huge mistake of the left is how they seem to always react to the media agenda. Israel is on the TV so they concentrate loads on that....But what about other countries that have less of a media spotlight?
I dont want to go on and on about immigration AGAAAIN but i think the orthodox lefts position on the issue is totally anti socialist, supporting free market policies that make the world a far more unequal place. Which again shows up the lack of Internationalism. Nearly all the pro immigration arguements concentrate on the UKs national interest. Again how could that be described as Internationalist in the Socialist sense?
I agree with you that neither the soft or hard left are having much impact. I dont identify myself as soft left or reformist. Tho i will vote Labour and laugh when people exaggerate how bad they they are etc...
I would like to see a massive re-distribution in wealth and power. But that is only going to happen when you have a left who primarily want to represent public opinion NOT change it.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Anyone said 'herding cats' yet?
If not - 'Getting the modern left to work together is like herding cats.'
If not - 'Getting the modern left to work together is like herding cats.'
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
*awed by Belboids cat herding experience*
You bow to no one, sir! Anyone who can herd cats gets my vote. Or hat. Or something.
Seeruslee tho fowks, 3 things:
1. We all grow up in a cap society, and many on the left don't seem to be huge on self-analysis when it comes to understanding how the wider ideologies of society you absorb by osmosis interact with their personally chosen or parentally indoctrinated views
2. No one in recent time has successfully bridged the gap between the m/c left and the w/c left. The m/c left are still all like Orwell - want to support the proles but ultimately will always hold their nose about it.
3. The foundations of the left in this country was a working class that had aspiration to make itself 'better' via education. This is now seen as hopelessly classist and a Bad Thing by a great many people - paternalist and patronising.
You bow to no one, sir! Anyone who can herd cats gets my vote. Or hat. Or something.
Seeruslee tho fowks, 3 things:
1. We all grow up in a cap society, and many on the left don't seem to be huge on self-analysis when it comes to understanding how the wider ideologies of society you absorb by osmosis interact with their personally chosen or parentally indoctrinated views
2. No one in recent time has successfully bridged the gap between the m/c left and the w/c left. The m/c left are still all like Orwell - want to support the proles but ultimately will always hold their nose about it.
3. The foundations of the left in this country was a working class that had aspiration to make itself 'better' via education. This is now seen as hopelessly classist and a Bad Thing by a great many people - paternalist and patronising.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
this one gets rolled out every time Palestine comes up, and gets answered every time too. Put simply:
What is the role of the western powers (you know, where we live) in propping up states such as Sudan, or Vietnam? None.
Do the appalling circumstances in those states have massive knock on effects upon other states around the region, and destabilise that region? No, not to the same extent at all.
Have those states been consistently oppressive, and/or have stolen another peoples' land and liberty, for the last sixty years? No.
Have the workers of those states been kicked out, meaning they are incapable of winning the struggle within those countries all on their own? No.
Socialist internationalism is based on politics, not liberal 'morality'.
eh? how is left-wing politics any more full of anger and hatred?
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