Why aren't the left doing better?

[brasicritique]

The "Left" aren't doing better because 'left-wing' and 'pro-working class' no longer mean the same thing. The "Left" (which I assume by the op to be those operating on the fringes of the political spectrum) have the image of caring about middle class issues like the environment or foreign affairs/human rights abroad. None of these issues are economic based and none of them particularly help the British working classes, no matter how noble a cause they are (indeed a lot of the environmental issues could be seen as anti working class because they're the ones priced out by these policies). That's not to say the "left" don't care or support working class ideals, they just prioritise the middle class left wing issues above working class left wing issues (but pay lip service to them).

I think the working class feel alienated by these left wing parties that should primarily be campaigning to make working class lives better, but seem to put all their efforts into far away lands or into issues that don't help the working classes.

I'd also say that some of the left movements' attempt to hijack Islamic organisations to bolster their own support has backfired, and it is actually a lot of their groups that ended up being hijacked by Islamic interests instead, which hasn't particularly helped their image in the eyes of the working classes

exactly

 

[brasicritique]

Yep. add to that the social composition of the enitre left seems to be almost completley made up of the same middleclass people who's role within the system is to boss, bully and generally make working class people's lives as unpleasant as possible. As long as this combined with what you say ablove remains the case, the left will continue to be an irrelavance at best.

The worst thing is that the existance of this type of leftism is serving to discredit leftwing ideas as a whole and is preventing the rise of a better left.

exactly and also imo adding to the rise of the bnp

 

[brasicritique]

the vast majority of people have no idea about fringe swappies chanting pro-hezbollah stuff at marches.


many still believe labour to be a socialist party ffs.

if in doubt blame the people

 

[brasicritique]

What is true in what you say is that actual practice is worth far far more than theory alone. But practice will always be directionless if there's no understanding behind it.

You esentially identify yourself as a left reformist, but I believe without a good understanding of this social system and it's place in history you'll always be drawing your theory, the underpinnings of your politics - and you do have some even if it is not something you recognise - from the current state of the movement, such as it is.

And that's inadequate, IMO. I know you dislike the far left - you think it's somehow false and not of the w/c - and you dismiss Marx etc, but these people *are* the history of the w/c movement. They engaged and did things and learned lessons, many of which are very valuable to us. The were fighting the same enemy and what they learned needs ot be updated for contemporary conditions.

stick to tantra with sting on dvd as your is the most ignorant post of the lot even more than fullyplupmed

 

[Fullyplumped]

No all you ever do is whine and attempt to flame treelover always rightly questions the conventional wisdom of the left if indeed such a thing exsists in relation to the issue that you and your comfy pals like fullyplumped ignore on the bright side at least your not denying that your more interested in being middleclass than anything else

I'm no pal of belboid, that's for sure, and I have been surprised to find myself agreeing with treelover far more than I'm used to doing!

Support your local Credit Union.

 

[brasicritique]

stick your pager up your arse

 

[Fullyplumped]

stick your pager up your arse

I can imagine Brasicritique's chat up line - "Let me warn you: I'm a queer, moody brute, but there's rich soil in here if you care to dig for it."

 

[brasicritique]

yeh relly seeing as how imagination is somthing you clearly lack

 

[Fullyplumped]

Brasicritique welcoming the new recruits to the Socialist Proletarian People's Marxist Leninist Front For Advancement of Working Class Issues -

Ye miserable, crawlin' worms. Are ye here again then? Have ye come like Nimshi, son of Rehoboam, secretly out of your doomed houses, to hear what's comin' to ye? Have ye come, old and young, sick and well, matrons and virgins, if there be any virgins amongst you, which is not likely, the world being in the wicked state that it is. Have ye come to hear me tell you of the great, crimson, licking flames of hell fire? Aye! You've come, dozens of ye. Like rats to the granary, like field mice when it's harvest home. And what good will it do ye? You're all damned! Damned! Do you ever stop to think what that word means? No, you don't. It means endless, horrifying torment! It means your poor, sinful bodies stretched out on red-hot gridirons, in the nethermost, fiery pit of hell and those demons mocking ye while they waves cooling jellies in front of ye. You know what it's like when you burn your hand, taking a cake out of the oven, or lighting one of them godless cigarettes? And it stings with a fearful pain, aye? And you run to clap a bit of butter on it to take the pain away, aye? Well, I'll tell ye, there'll be no butter in hell!

 

[treelover]

The "Left" aren't doing better because 'left-wing' and 'pro-working class' no longer mean the same thing. The "Left" (which I assume by the op to be those operating on the fringes of the political spectrum) have the image of caring about middle class issues like the environment or foreign affairs/human rights abroad. None of these issues are economic based and none of them particularly help the British working classes, no matter how noble a cause they are (indeed a lot of the environmental issues could be seen as anti working class because they're the ones priced out by these policies). That's not to say the "left" don't care or support working class ideals, they just prioritise the middle class left wing issues above working class left wing issues (but pay lip service to them).

I think the working class feel alienated by these left wing parties that should primarily be campaigning to make working class lives better, but seem to put all their efforts into far away lands or into issues that don't help the working classes.

I'd also say that some of the left movements' attempt to hijack Islamic organisations to bolster their own support has backfired, and it is actually a lot of their groups that ended up being hijacked by Islamic interests instead, which hasn't particularly helped their image in the eyes of the working classes

Excellent post, Cyber Rose, a cogent summary, which doubtless will be attacked and ad -hominems utilised

A case in point is the new Welfare Reform Act, the second in two years which will see the privatisation of the welfare state and impact on millions, but still no response from the left, leaving aside John Mcdonnell and co. If you try to point this out, you are 'whining' etc. There is also as KS shrewdly put it a lack of reflexivity on the left: this was slowly changing, but now with Palestine and the emergence of, to them, ,a new UK 'radicalised' proletariat in sections of the Muslim community, (although only sections), the need for critical thinking and analysis has rescinded and the default position of arrogance and hubris is back on track.

 

[Fruitloop]

The environment is a middle-class issue? You really have become beyond parody.

 

[kyser_soze]

The last page of posts is hysterically funny. But then that's no real surprise given the arrival of Mr Spittle.

 

[Spion]

stick to tantra with sting on dvd as your is the most ignorant post of the lot even more than fullyplupmed

Great post, Einstein *chortle*

 

[treelover]

Who he?

 

[DotCommunist]

if in doubt blame the people

yes thats exactly what I meant isn't it?

christ you are thick

 

[Fruitloop]

Is it not obvious that the idea that the primary interests of the working class are 'economic-based' is not, and can never be, a 'left' position?

 

[JimPage]

I also think that the way that the average voter does politics by voting in elections once a year. The left think that politics shoud be more than this - and that real power will, one day, be in the streets. It may be, it may not be, but a first step would be to building up an electoral brand name for "The Left" , and starting to stand in elections in a meaningful manner

There are by elections in London all the time, ones coming up in Lewisham, Croydon, Enfield, Waltham Forest, Hackney Bexley and Redbridge. Only Redbridge and Hackney has left candidates

Surely the left in London, and I pick on London becasue it has more leftys per sqaure mile than anywhere else, have the ability to fight at least some of these elections?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Its all about money and power.Why do you think there is so many different groups.
They all put their own vested interests befor their communities.
You seen how blatant this was at the recent anti-bnp red white and blue.Each anti-racist group trying to grab the spot light for their group not the collective cause.

Agreed, truly ridiculous.

 

[JimPage]

One thing- look to the BNP in one regard. They have been able to organise a political party out of a wide divergent group of those to the right of the tories, which the simple name "Nazi" doesnt do justice to. Fascists, Loyalists, Anti EU types, Racists, Hitlerites, Strasserites, Religious Righters, Population Control Greenies, Patriots, Nationalisits, Syndicalists and Tories all rolled up in to one party.

In their own way- as divergent as the left- and who should on paper be falling apart due to their internal contradictions.But they are not.

So why can they unite, when the left, who have more in common than this bunch, fail to do so

 

[trevhagl]

One thing- look to the BNP in one regard. They have been able to organise a political party out of a wide divergent group of those to the right of the tories, which the simple name "Nazi" doesnt do justice to. Fascists, Loyalists, Anti EU types, Racists, Hitlerites, Strasserites, Religious Righters, Population Control Greenies, Patriots, Nationalisits, Syndicalists and Tories all rolled up in to one party.

In their own way- as divergent as the left- and who should on paper be falling apart due to their internal contradictions.But they are not.

So why can they unite, when the left, who have more in common than this bunch, fail to do so

You have a point but these boards alone proves that will never happen. I actually thought this was full of Tory bastards cos of the amount of arguments peoiple started with me, then i read the "voting Tory" thread and found they had similar views to ME, but would just argue about any trivial thing!

 

[TremulousTetra]

You're both right, it is indeed very very sad. Repeating the mistake of the KPD in Germany.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Its all about money and power.Why do you think there is so many different groups.
They all put their own vested interests befor their communities.
You seen how blatant this was at the recent anti-bnp red white and blue.Each anti-racist group trying to grab the spot light for their group not the collective cause.

do you have any links illustrating this point?

 

[brasicritique]

Brasicritique welcoming the new recruits to the Socialist Proletarian People's Marxist Leninist Front For Advancement of Working Class Issues -

i think not as i said no imagination and judging by your high number of posts in context to the high number of posters who cannot stand you no life to boot

 

[brasicritique]

yes thats exactly what I meant isn't it?

yes

christ you are thick

nope

 

[brasicritique]

The environment is a middle-class issue? You really have become beyond parody.

my god are you really trying to suggest that the enivronment is not a middleclass issue in that most of the solutions to environmental issues are in the main always from a free market perspective Non middleclass people have no stake in green or looking around suppposedly left wing politics as middleclass people always have to be in charge regardless of talent

 

[DotCommunist]

yes




nope

a post describing the failure of the left to make any impact on 'the people' (what does that even mean brass? I was talking about me and mine and the mainstream, why is it you use terms like 'the people'? Totally divorced from mainstream society, eh? Why not look outside of yourself for thirty seconds and stop crying over factionalist shit that really aint helping') is interpreted by red-spittle brass as blaming 'the people'.


yes you are thick, and your ability to spell yes and nope is impressive, given your idiocy

 

[brasicritique]

I also think that the way that the average voter does politics by voting in elections once a year. The left think that politics shoud be more than this - and that real power will, one day, be in the streets. It may be, it may not be, but a first step would be to building up an electoral brand name for "The Left" , and starting to stand in elections in a meaningful manner

There are by elections in London all the time, ones coming up in Lewisham, Croydon, Enfield, Waltham Forest, Hackney Bexley and Redbridge. Only Redbridge and Hackney has left candidates

Surely the left in London, and I pick on London becasue it has more leftys per sqaure mile than anywhere else, have the ability to fight at least some of these elections?

owing to the FACT that the left in london is predominantly middleclass and that this middleclass as demonstarated have no friends from working class backgrounds there ablity to fight the bnp relys on posh people knocking on working class doors saying if you vote bnp your racsist

 

[sleaterkinney]

I've got to say, after seeing Sheridan and Galloway on Celebrity Big Brother I'm not impressed, I'm not voting for that.

 

[rover07]

I've got to say, after seeing Sheridan and Galloway on Celebrity Big Brother I'm not impressed, I'm not voting for that.

True ...but then they are centrist not left wing.

 

[butchersapron]

I've got to say, after seeing Sheridan and Galloway on Celebrity Big Brother I'm not impressed, I'm not voting for that.

Where do you live?