When will the lib dem split happen?

[ViolentPanda]

There is only a handfull of LibDems in the Cabinet. The vast majority of LibDems have no share in that power. So why do you think they are prepared to go along with the party leader's policy.

They're not. Falling membership figures in the 6 months since the last General Election reflect that. The party membership is extremely pissed off with the parliamentary party. The membership is overwhelmingly social-democratic, whereas the Orange Bookers in the parliamentary party are all fully paid-up neo-liberals.

They hope, indeed, that by the time of the next election the British people will be "inspired by their actions" to vote for them "in droves". That is their calculation. At the moment I have to say it looks like pie in the sky.

It's always looked like pie in the sky, which is one of the reasons Clegg's predecessors (especially Ashdown) had real hopes of a permanent union with (new) Labour (which Labour's landslide majority in '97 put the kibosh on).

 

[butchersapron]

It's not a question of whether you can discuss a party with or without reference to other parties but whether something can be gained in understanding from doing so. It's perfectly reasonably to compare the Lib Dems behaviour in government to other previous governments. I'm sick to my back teeth of left-wing types who supported and voted for Labour throughout 90 days detentions, ID cards & Iraq bemoaning people for supporting Lib Dems because they failed with their 50 or so MPs to get the 300 or so Conservative MPs to agree to their policy on tuition fees.

Totally dishonest retelling of history - the lib-dems didn't and don't oppose the rise in tuition fees. Stop trying to pretend they do. We can all see how it happened. This dishonesty seems to be have become a point of principle fro the lib-dems. Finally you've found one.

 

[Lock&Light]

I know. You haven't said anything useful. At least Moon23 tries to have a serious discussion.

While you attempt to restrict it.

 

[Lock&Light]

Maths obviously not his strong point.

Four years and five months if you prefer.

 

[Streathamite]

Fair enough. But if the LibDems are being accused of breaking pledges then it's perfectly acceptable for a defender of the LibDems to point out Labour's guilt in the same matter, I would think.

I disagree, and would do so if it were the obverse i.e. Labour in govt and ratting on their manifesto - in fact, I did so, loudly and vociferously, practically every day New Labour were in power. When a party has committed as big and shameless a betrayal as the lib dems, and one that is gonna hurt so many people, the excuse of "oh but look over there, they're just as bad" simply won't wash. I don't excuse an individual mugger on the grounds there's more than one of them in my community, historically.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Four years and five months if you prefer.

He meant with reference to Clegg's calculations.

 

[SpineyNorman]

While you attempt to restrict it.

How am I doing that? Criticising a statement is not the same as silencing someone. I can tell you you're talking shite without violating your right to free speech. You may find this difficult to grasp but it's still true.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Four years and five months if you prefer.

I meant his "calculations" were off, not yours.

 

[Streathamite]

At the moment I have to say it looks like pie in the sky.

I'll let you in on the inside goss here; there are at least 3 lib dem backbenchers and one govt minister whom I have already witnessed saying roughly the same. Not that it will do them much good.

 

[moon23]

They're not. Falling membership figures in the 6 months since the last General Election reflect that. The party membership is extremely pissed off with the parliamentary party. The membership is overwhelmingly social-democratic, whereas the Orange Bookers in the parliamentary party are all fully paid-up neo-liberals.

It's always looked like pie in the sky, which is one of the reasons Clegg's predecessors (especially Ashdown) had real hopes of a permanent union with (new) Labour (which Labour's landslide majority in '97 put the kibosh on).

Do you have a link for any stats on falling membership?

 

[Lock&Light]

I meant his "calculations" were off, not yours.

I don't see where maths come into it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't see where maths come into it.

Calculation - maths? oh nevermind.

 

[moon23]

I disagree, and would do so if it were the obverse i.e. Labour in govt and ratting on their manifesto - in fact, I did so, loudly and vociferously, practically every day New Labour were in power. Wqhen a party has committed as big and shameless a betrayal as the lib dems, and one that is gonna hurt so many people, the excuse of "oh but look over there, they're just as bad simply won't weash> I don't excuse an individual mugger on the grounds there's more than one of them in my community, historically.

It's not as big though because the Lib Dems don't have sole control of the Coalition's policy, in fact they have far less control then the Conservatives. This is how it should be seeing as far more people voted for the Conservatives, and those people's democratic views should be reflected.

 

[Lock&Light]

How am I doing that? Criticising a statement is not the same as silencing someone. I can tell you you're talking shite without violating your right to free speech. You may find this difficult to grasp but it's still true.

Fortunately I can accept your short-comings.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Do you have a link for any stats on falling membership?

Are you seriously trying to claim it's not? Talk about clutching at straws.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Fortunately I can accept your short-comings.

How noble of you. Twat.

 

[Lock&Light]

Calculation - maths? oh nevermind.

How weak!

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's not as big though because the Lib Dems don't have sole control of the Coalition's policy, in fact they have far less control then the Conservatives. This is how it should be seeing as far more people voted for the Conservatives, and those people's democratic views should be reflected.

I just want to make sure I've got this right. Are you seriously saying that lying is OK provided you're only lying to get into coalition? Really? Is this the Lib Dem ethos?

 

[moon23]

Are you seriously trying to claim it's not? Talk about clutching at straws.

I don't know SpineyNorman, I suspect it has done in some areas. My local party has actually seen a steady increase in membership since the coalition was formed, but then it's a rural Conservative facing area. In Urban previous Labour strongholds like the Northern cities I suspect it might have fallen. What the overall picture is I don't really know. VP apparently does have some information about this that i'd like to see.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't know SpineyNorman, I suspect it has done in some areas. My local party has actually seen a steady increase in membership since the coalition was formed, but then it's a rural Conservative facing area. In Urban previous Labour strongholds like the Northern cities I suspect it might have fallen. What the overall picture is I don't really know. VP apparently does have some information about this that i'd like to see.

Given how drastically their support has fallen in the poles I'd say that it's a more than fair assumption to make.

 

[Lock&Light]

Given how drastically their support has fallen in the poles I'd say that it's a more than fair assumption to make.

Do you mean their support among the polar bears, or the penguins?

 

[Streathamite]

It's not as big though because the Lib Dems don't have sole control of the Coalition's policy, in fact they have far less control then the Conservatives. This is how it should be seeing as far more people voted for the Conservatives, and those people's democratic views should be reflected.

Absolute rubbish! You have broken a raft of promises and betrayed the trust people put in you, simply to get into power, and you are now helping the tories carry out a raft of vicious cuts most of the voters didn't vote for. FULL STOP.
There really is no wriggle room here.

 

[Streathamite]

I just want to make sure I've got this right. Are you seriously saying that lying is OK provided you're only lying to get into coalition? Really? Is this the Lib Dem ethos?

Yes, it is, and that is exactly what he is saying, and has done all along.

 

[moon23]

Given how drastically their support has fallen in the poles I'd say that it's a more than fair assumption to make.

Well you would say that but then at the mid point through the year after a month or so of the coalition the membership was up 14% with 4,500 people having joined since the coalition was formed. It's possible that there was been a drop again from this figure with other people leaving but I don't know any figures.

Despite the polls membership in my local party has contiuned to increase. It could be that those people who are turning against us in the polls are swing voters rather than the membership base.

 

[moon23]

Absolute rubbish! You have broken a raft of promises and betrayed the trust people put in you, simply to get into power, and you are now helping the tories carry out a raft of vicious cuts most of the voters didn't vote for. FULL STOP.
There really is no wriggle room here.

What so the smaller party was meant to overide the democratic wishes of all the Conservative voters in order to enforce it's pledge and ensure the Coalition did what the 50 or so Lib Dem MPs wanted. Get a grip, you clearly don't understand coalition politics.

FYI Any government elected would have made cuts, Darling said as much.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Do you mean their support among the polar bears, or the penguins?

How weak!

 

[Lock&Light]

How weak!

Not on this one, Norm.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you have a link for any stats on falling membership?

Nope.
What I do have is a list of figures for 35 (equal to about 6%, so a reasonable sample) randomly-selected LD constituency parties that I contacted at random last month. I've texted the person I did the research for, to see if he'll let me post the data, although I don't know if he will, (he hasn't published it yet).

 

[belboid]

There are a whole host of things, taken from - http://wantagelibdems.org.uk/news/000230/coalition_government_is_delivering_lib_dem_policies.html

· A referendum on the Alternative Vote to take place in May 2011

· The right to sack MPs guilty of serious misconduct

· Fixed term parliaments of five years

· Reform of party funding

· Moving towards an elected House of Lords, elected by proportional representation

· A statutory register of lobbyists

· A radical devolution of power and greater financial autonomy to local government and community groups

The Liberal Democrats promised a raft of policies to help the economy recover and make sure that we build a new green and sustainable economy fit for the 21st century. A huge number of these policies will now become a reality, including:

· Tough action to tackle the deficit

· The creation of a green investment bank

· Reform of the banking system to make sure that banks lend to viable British businesses

· An independent commission on separating investment and retail banking

· Measures to improve energy efficiency in homes and businesses

· Support for low carbon energy production and an increase the target for energy from renewable sources

· Enabling the creation of a national high speed rail network

· The creation of a smart electricity grid and the roll-out of smart meters

· The establishment of an emissions performance standard that will prevent coal-fired power stations being built unless they are equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage Technology

· Replacing Air Passenger Duty with a per-plane duty

· The provision of a floor price for carbon, as well as working to persuade the EU to move towards full auctioning of ETS permits

The Liberal Democrats have long campaigned for the restoration of freedoms and civil liberties eroded under Labour and the rolling back of the surveillance state. A huge number of Lib Dem policies will now happen, including:

· The abolition of Identity Cards, the National Identity register, the next generation of biometric passports and the ContactPoint Database

· The repeal of unnecessary laws

· Further regulation of CCTV

· The outlawing of finger-printing of children at school without permission

· Extending the Freedom of Information Act

· Ending child detention for immigration purposes

· Removal of innocent people from the DNA database

There are also a host of other Lib Dem policies that will now happen under the Coalition Government. These include:

· Fair compensation for Equitable Life victims

· The modernisation of the Royal Mail

· Flexible working and promotion of equal pay

· Reform of the NHS to strengthen the voices of patients and the role of doctors

· A commission on long-term reform of social care

· Cutting Quangos and government bureaucracy

· Implementing the recommendations of the Calman Commission on Scottish devolution

· A referendum on further powers for the Welsh Assembly

the large majority of theam have NOT been introduced yet, so for you to calim them as Liberal Scum wins is yet another lie from you.

You are just incapable fo stopping lying, arent you? What a vile human being.

 

[Streathamite]

What so the smaller party was meant to overide the democratic wishes of all the Conservative voters in order to enforce it's pledge and ensure the Coalition did what the 50 or so Lib Dem MPs wanted.

You didn't HAVE to go into a coalition, remember? You could have agreed to them forming a minority government, at which point they'd have found it MUCH harder to implement all these cuts. But you chose to do this, because the lure of power was more important than principles or having any real politics.

Get a grip, you clearly don't understand coalition politics.

As coalition politics clearly means 'lying to the electorate', I'm glad I don't! And in your party's case, it also means 'letting tories make mugs out of us'.

FYI Any government elected would have made cuts, Darling said as much

So? I'd have fought Labour cuts just as hard! FFS, this is toddler-tribalism. Labour shafting the poor doesn't excuse you doing xso, ESPECIALLY NOT when your own leader - remember him, said before the elction that the tories cuts proposals were too big, too far - and yet he has totally junked that now he's cameron's fag.