When will the lib dem split happen?

[DotCommunist]

· Cutting Quangos and government bureaucracy

and that

 

[Lock&Light]

I used to call him Schlock&Shite.

And that's what made everyone think, "Shit! Nino's rather clever after all".

 

[Lock&Light]

We're not talking about Labour. We're talking about the Lib Dems. Nice try though.

Do you really believe it's possible to discuss one political party without reference to other political parties?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Do you really believe it's possible to discuss one political party without reference to other political parties?

Yes. Don't you?

 

[Lock&Light]

Yes. Don't you?

A less than wide-ranging discussion possibly.

 

[Streathamite]

Do you really believe it's possible to discuss one political party without reference to other political parties?

yes, of course it is! Just because I think the libdems are a bunch of lying, unprincipled scumbags, it doesn't mean i think Labour are any good, and nor does it give them a get-out clause in any way. The failings of one party do not excuse another

 

[Santino]

Moving towards an elected House of Lords, elected by proportional representation

The Queen has been graciously pleased to signify Her intention of conferring Peerages of the United Kingdom for Life upon the undermentioned:

Working Peers list
Conservative Party

•Tariq Ahmad – businessman and former Vice Chairman of the Conservative Party
•Sir Robert Balchin DL - Pro-Chancellor of Brunel University
•Elizabeth Berridge – Director of the Conservative Christian Fellowship
•Sir Michael Bishop CBE – career in civil aviation, Chairman of The Michael Bishop Foundation a charitable foundation
•Alistair Cooke OBE – career in education, authorship and politics
•Sir Patrick Cormack – former Conservative MP
•Michael Dobbs – author, presenter and adviser to Margaret Thatcher and John Major
•Robert Edmiston – businessman and charity campaigner
•Sir Reg Empey OBE – Leader of the Ulster Unionist Party 2005 – 2010
• Andrew Feldman – businessman and Co-Chairman of the Conservative Party
•Julian Fellowes DL – actor, novelist, film director and screenwriter
•Stanley Fink – Chief Executive of International Standard Asset Management and Chairman of Earth Capital LLP. Treasurer of the Conservative Party
•Howard Flight – career in finance; held various positions in Conservative Shadow Cabinet, Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party 2004 -2005
•David Gold – senior litigation partner at Herbert Smith LLP
•Michael Grade CBE – past Chief Executive of Channel 4 Television and former Executive Chairman of ITV plc
•Rachael Heyhoe-Flint OBE DL – past captain of England women’s cricket team, currently public relations and sports marketing consultant
•Anne Jenkin – charitable and political work for the Conservative Party
•Sir Michael Lord – former Conservative MP and former Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons
•Rt Hon David Maclean – former Conservative MP; held a number of Ministerial posts; Opposition Chief Whip 2001 – 2005
•George Magan – career in finance; former Conservative Party Treasurer and Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party Foundation
•Sir Bernard Ribeiro CBE FRCS – retired Consultant General Surgeon; member of the Health Policy Research Advisory Board of the American College of Surgeons
•Fiona Shackleton LVO – lawyer specialising in family law
•Richard Spring – former Conservative MP
•Tina Stowell MBE – former Head of BBC corporate Affairs; past Deputy Chief of Staff to William Hague as Leader of HM Opposition
•Nicholas True CBE – past Deputy Head of the PM’s Policy Unit; former Private Secretary to the Leader of the Opposition in the House of Lords; Leader of Richmond Borough Council
•Patience Wheatcroft – Editor-in-Chief of the Wall Street Journal Europe
•Gordon Wasserman – internationally recognised expert on management of police forces
The Queen has also been graciously pleased to signify Her intention of conferring a Peerage of the United Kingdom for Life upon General Sir Richard Dannatt GCB CBE MC DL, Former Chief of the General Staff. Sir Richard has elected to sit on the cross benches.

Liberal Democrat Party
•Dr Sarah (Sal) Brinton – Executive Director of the Association of Universities in the East of England
•Dee Doocey OBE – Chair of the London Assembly
•Qurban Hussain – Deputy Group Leader of the Liberal Democrat group on Luton Borough Council
•Judith Jolly – Chair of Executive Committee of Liberal Democrats in Devon and Cornwall
•Susan Kramer – former Liberal Democrat MP
•Raj Loomba – businessman and campaigner for widows’ rights
• Jonathan Marks – commercial and family law QC with specialist interest in human rights and constitutional reform
•Monroe Palmer OBE – Liberal Democrat Councillor and Chair of Liberal Democrat Friends of Israel
•Jenny Randerson – Liberal Democrat Member of the National Assembly for Wales for Cardiff Central, former Minister in the Welsh Assembly Government
•John Sharkey – Chairman of the Liberal Democrat 2010 General Election campaign
•Nicol Stephen – Former Deputy First Minister of Scotland (2005 – 2007) and leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats (2005 – 2008)
•Ben Stoneham – Liberal Democrat HQ Operations Director
•Mike Storey CBE – Primary School Head teacher, former Leader of Liverpool City Council, Liberal Democrat Councillor and former Lord Mayor of Liverpool;
•Paul Strasburger – businessman and philanthropist
•Claire Tyler – Chief Executive of Relate
Labour Party
•Dame Joan Bakewell DBE – writer and broadcaster
•Ray Collins – General Secretary of the Labour Party
•Maurice Glasman – Senior Lecturer in political theory at London Metropolitan University and for his work with London Citizens
•Jonathan Kestenbaum – businessman and Chief Executive of National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts
•Oona King – Head of Diversity at Channel 4 Television and former Labour MP; currently journalist and presenter
•Ruth Lister – Emeritus Professor of Social Policy at Loughbrough University
•Eluned Morgan – former Labour MEP representing Mid and West Wales; currently Honorary Distinguished Professor at Cardiff University and for her work on low carbon energy
•Sir Gulam Noon MBE – Chairman and Founder of Noon Products and of the Noon Foundation
•Stewart Wood – former Downing Street and HMT special adviser, lecturer at University of Oxford; previously Fellow of Magdalen College and co-founder of Nexus
•Bryony Worthington – career focusing on promoting environmental and social change
Plaid Cymru
•Rt Hon Dafydd Wigley – former Leader of Plaid Cymru; Honorary President of Plaid Cymru

.

 

[Lock&Light]

yes, of course it is! Just because I think the libdems are a bunch of lying, unprincipled scumbags, it doesn't mean i think Labour are any good, and nor does it give them a get-out clause in any way. The failings of one party do not excuse another

Here in Nederland there are many parties, and I don't fully agree with any of them. Yet I vote for one because, having compared it with the others, I think it the least worst option. Discussing that party without referrence to the other parties would not be very meaningfull.

 

[Streathamite]

Here in Nederland there are many parties, and I don't fully agree with any of them. Yet I vote for one because, having compared it with the others, I think it the least worst option. Discussing that party without referrence to the other parties would not be very meaningfull.

ahh...right. Yes, of course, when considering where to place one's vote(s), irt's a comparative exercise (for me, basically, it usually boils down to Labour being marginally less awful than the other ones, unless it's a council election and there's an SP or really good green candidate), but I presumed the context here is one of when we are critiquing a particular party

 

[moon23]

It's not a question of whether you can discuss a party with or without reference to other parties but whether something can be gained in understanding from doing so. It's perfectly reasonably to compare the Lib Dems behaviour in government to other previous governments. I'm sick to my back teeth of left-wing types who supported and voted for Labour throughout 90 days detentions, ID cards & Iraq bemoaning people for supporting Lib Dems because they failed with their 50 or so MPs to get the 300 or so Conservative MPs to agree to their policy on tuition fees.

 

[Lock&Light]

ahh...right. Yes, of course, when considering where to place one's vote(s), irt's a comparative exercise (for me, basically, it usually boils down to Labour being marginally less awful than the other ones, unless it's a council election and there's an SP or really good green candidate), but I presumed the context here is one of when we are critiquing a particular party

Fair enough. But if the LibDems are being accused of breaking pledges then it's perfectly acceptable for a defender of the LibDems to point out Labour's guilt in the same matter, I would think.

 

[moon23]

ahh...right. Yes, of course, when considering where to place one's vote(s), irt's a comparative exercise (for me, basically, it usually boils down to Labour being marginally less awful than the other ones, unless it's a council election and there's an SP or really good green candidate), but I presumed the context here is one of when we are critiquing a particular party

No it's a thread about whether a split will occur, it's you that's turned it into critiquing a particular party and we don't have to ascribe to that narrative.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, you're an idiot that can't distinguish between dogmatical and pragmatical politics.

What the Lib-Dems have done can't be defined as pragmatic, unless the entire Lib-Dem parliamentary party is labouring under the delusion that the electorate will be so inspired by their actions that Lib-Dems will be voted in at the next general election in droves.
What they're doing can, however, be defined as a craven politics of acquiescence aimed at keeping Lib-Dem MPs sitting in the cabinet for as long as possible.

 

[SpineyNorman]

A referendum on the Alternative Vote to take place in May 2011

You're going to lose that so it doesn't count. Plus it's not really any better than FPTP. I thought it said PR in your manifesto? And weren't labour going to do that anyway?

The right to sack MPs guilty of serious misconduct

Something tells me that one's not going to go well. First, I assume making false promises won't count as serious misconduct. Second, the way it looks like being carried out, it's going to be more about questioning what it says in campaign literature, opening the door for cases against independents where, although they're innocent, they won't be able to afford to challenge the case (see numerous libel/slander cases)

Fixed term parliaments of five years

Read as: protecting this coalition.[/QUOTE]

Reform of party funding

Read as: ignoring the Tory tax dodgers and focussing on Labour's union funding.

Moving towards an elected House of Lords, elected by proportional representation

Only in the same way as you're "moving towards" the abolition of tuition fees. Has this passed? Is it likely to with the Tories needed to pass it?

A statutory register of lobbyists

Don't worry son, no food on the table tonight, but we have this peace of paper that tells us who the lobbyists are!

A radical devolution of power and greater financial autonomy to local government and community groups

You're getting a bit better at this spin business. But doesn't that really mean a radical reduction of funds and devolution of blame and responsibility to local government and community groups? Big Society!

The Liberal Democrats promised a raft of policies to help the economy recover and make sure that we build a new green and sustainable economy fit for the 21st century. A huge number of these policies will now become a reality, including:

lol

Tough action to tackle the deficit

Via swingeing cuts, in direct contradiction of your manifesto.

The creation of a green investment bank

Where? And how, exactly, does that make up for a whole raft of policies that target the poorest in society?

Reform of the banking system to make sure that banks lend to viable British businesses

How will it do that then? This is just fluff.

An independent commission on separating investment and retail banking

Not bad, but it hardly makes up for your enabling on the cuts, does it?

Measures to improve energy efficiency in homes and businesses

What, like Labour were doing already and proposed to continue? Don't worry if you can't pay your gas bill gran, at least the cold can't escape now you're insulated!

Support for low carbon energy production and an increase the target for energy from renewable sources

Where's that then?

Enabling the creation of a national high speed rail network

Privitised one must assume? In which case the profits will go to wealthy individuals and the losses will be taken from the tax payer, as happens with our current low speed rail network. I'd love to see how you're "enabling" this too.

The creation of a smart electricity grid and the roll-out of smart meters

I don't even know what they are and I'm not sure I care. These are utterly meaningless when compared to the things you're allowing the Tories to do in a direct contradiction of your manifesto promises.

The establishment of an emissions performance standard that will prevent coal-fired power stations being built unless they are equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage Technology

Again, who cares? And how do we know the Tories wouldn't have done it anyway in order to get closer to our CO2 emissions target?

Replacing Air Passenger Duty with a per-plane duty

Well, that clearly excuses the u-turns, lies and attacks on the poor!

The provision of a floor price for carbon, as well as working to persuade the EU to move towards full auctioning of ETS permits

1) Don't know what that means. 2) Don't care. 3) Do you really think that would be a vote winner, given the rest of the stuff you've done?

The Liberal Democrats have long campaigned for the restoration of freedoms and civil liberties eroded under Labour and the rolling back of the surveillance state. A huge number of Lib Dem policies will now happen, including:

What, like the proposed introduction of drones to monitor protest? Or the expansion of the database state? Or continuing support for the human rights act?

Maybe not then.

The abolition of Identity Cards, the National Identity register, the next generation of biometric passports and the ContactPoint Database

Tories would have done that anyway.

The repeal of unnecessary laws

Such as? The human rights act per chance?

Further regulation of CCTV

Such as?

The outlawing of finger-printing of children at school without permission

Look, little Jonny, you're not going to be able to afford to stay on in the 6th form 'cos we've cut EMA and you won't be able to go to uni either since we increased the fees. But it's all ok 'cos the teachers can't fingerprint you anymore!

Extending the Freedom of Information Act

Good.

Ending child detention for immigration purposes

Except you've already backed down on that one. Do keep up.

Removal of innocent people from the DNA database

Good. However, I think the Tories would probably have done this anyway in order to appease Davis and his cronies.

There are also a host of other Lib Dem policies that will now happen under the Coalition Government.

LOL

Fair compensation for Equitable Life victims

The Tories would have been pressured into this anyway; the rich use EL too.

The modernisation of the Royal Mail

Read: privitisation. The tories could have managed that one all on their own.

Flexible working and promotion of equal pay

Yes. The Tories would have been quite capable of this on their own. Everyone's pay will be equally shit. And if you do unskilled work for the council you're going to have to compete with benefit claimants who are forced to work for free. How's about that for civil liberties?

Reform of the NHS to strengthen the voices of patients and the role of doctors

In other words giving decision making powers back to the doctors. You know this is just blame shifting, right? You also know there was a reason why these powers were taken away in the first place?

A commission on long-term reform of social care

Is this that personalisation thing? Hardly progressive. Tory policy too BTW.

Cutting Quangos and government bureaucracy

Tory policy. PC non-jobs, etc.

Implementing the recommendations of the Calman Commission on Scottish devolution

What might they have been?

A referendum on further powers for the Welsh Assembly

Hadn't Labour said they would do this also?



So bugger all of any substance then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

For instance raising the repayment threshold on tuition fees, delaying a decision on Trident & enacting the pupil premium.

The decision on Trident would have been postponed anyway, as has been explained to you countless times.
As for the "pupil premium", ever heard of robbing Peter to pay Paul? Well in this case, Peter is being robbed to pay...Peter. Money is being surreptitiously shaved from one part of the education budget, and diverted to another. Well classy.

 

[moon23]

Fair enough. But if the LibDems are being accused of breaking pledges then it's perfectly acceptable for a defender of the LibDems to point out Labour's guilt in the same matter, I would think.

It was Labour who introduced the bloody things in the first place, the reason they are not being scrapped is becuase most people voted for a party that supports them. The Lib Dems are a minority within the house.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7928436.stm

 

[butchersapron]

No it's a thread about whether a split will occur, it's you that's turned it into critiquing a particular party and we don't have to ascribe to that narrative.

Haver another award.

 

[SpineyNorman]

A less than wide-ranging discussion possibly.

You asked whether it was possible, not whether the range of discussion would be the same. And yes, I'd still be able to say with confidence that the Lib Dems are a set of lying, manipulative, disingenuous bastards without needing a better party with whom to compare them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You mean the repayment threshold that is part of a bill that includes the increase in tuition fees your MPs promised to oppose? That repayment threshold? Well done. Have a peanut.

The Tories would almost certainly have raised the repayment threshold anyway. It's good politics, after you've just arse-raped someone via upping the fees threefold, to at least say "thank you" before wiping your cock on the curtains and fucking off.

 

[Lock&Light]

What the Lib-Dems have done can't be defined as pragmatic, unless the entire Lib-Dem parliamentary party is labouring under the delusion that the electorate will be so inspired by their actions that Lib-Dems will be voted in at the next general election in droves.
What they're doing can, however, be defined as a craven politics of acquiescence aimed at keeping Lib-Dem MPs sitting in the cabinet for as long as possible.

There is only a handfull of LibDems in the Cabinet. The vast majority of LibDems have no share in that power. So why do you think they are prepared to go along with the party leader's policy. They hope, indeed, that by the time of the next election the British people will be "inspired by their actions" to vote for them "in droves". That is their calculation. At the moment I have to say it looks like pie in the sky.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm sick to my back teeth of left-wing types who supported and voted for Labour throughout 90 days detentions, ID cards & Iraq bemoaning people for supporting Lib Dems because they failed with their 50 or so MPs to get the 300 or so Conservative MPs to agree to their policy on tuition fees.

Who are those people then?

 

[Lock&Light]

Who are those people then?

Most Labour Members of Parliament to start with.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It was Labour who introduced the bloody things in the first place, the reason they are not being scrapped is becuase most people voted for a party that supports them. The Lib Dems are a minority within the house.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7928436.stm

The pledge wasn't to scrap them, it was to oppose any increase. And it was a promise. We are now seeing in the polls what happens to parties that show this level of contempt towards the electorate.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Most Labour Members of Parliament to start with.

Nobody here then? So why is it relevant?

 

[moon23]

The decision on Trident would have been postponed anyway, as has been explained to you countless times.
As for the "pupil premium", ever heard of robbing Peter to pay Paul? Well in this case, Peter is being robbed to pay...Peter. Money is being surreptitiously shaved from one part of the education budget, and diverted to another. Well classy.

I'm not sure if the full details on the pupil premium funding are clear at this stage as Grove said recently it was on top of the budgets inherited from Labour. It's going to be diverting money to the kids who need it the most to give them a fairer start in life.

 

[Lock&Light]

Nobody here then? So why is it relevant?

I didn't say "nobody here".

 

[SpineyNorman]

There is only a handfull of LibDems in the Cabinet. The vast majority of LibDems have no share in that power. So why do you think they are prepared to go along with the party leader's policy. They hope, indeed, that by the time of the next election the British people will be "inspired by their actions" to vote for them "in droves". That is their calculation. At the moment I have to say it looks like pie in the sky.

I'd say the exact opposite of that is happening. I have yet to find anyone in Sheffield who will vote for Clegg again (even if he stands here again, which I sincerely doubt) and if this is reflected across the country, as I suspect it is, the Lib Dems are buggered.

 

[Lock&Light]

Luckily for Clegg he's got another four and a half years to try to change that. I can't know if he will suceed, in fact I doubt it, but that is his calculation.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I didn't say "nobody here".

I know. You haven't said anything useful. At least Moon23 tries to have a serious discussion. I was actually responding to moon23 saying he was sick of people who voted for and excused Labour despite their shitness, which implied that he was directing that towards people engaged in this discussion. Why else bring it up?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Luckily for Clegg he's got another four and a half years to try to change that. I can't know if he will suceed, in fact I doubt it, but that is his calculation.

Maths obviously not his strong point.