When will the lib dem split happen?

[moon23]

So you're saying people hate you because you're crap at spin? Is that really the best you can do? Maybe the fact they haven't been shouting from the rooftops about these "concessions" is due, at least in part, to the fact they don't actually exist.

Whereas a minority Tory government would have struggled to pass any of this crap.

Rather that Labour are very good at spin. A minority Tory government wouldn't have been a minority for very long, and would also have resulted in far greater fiscal problems as uncertainty damaged our potential for economic growth. I also think it would be rather difficult for a party that believes in consensus politics and coalitions to turn one down.

 

[butchersapron]

Rather that Labour are very good at spin. A minority Tory government wouldn't have been a minority for very long, and would also have resulted in far greater fiscal problems as uncertainty damaged our potential for economic growth. I also think it would be rather difficult for a party that believes in consensus politics and coalitions to turn one down.

You're saying that your party has no politics. You're an idiot.

 

[moon23]

We're not talking about Labour. We're talking about the Lib Dems. Nice try though.

I'm just pointing out that it's quite hard for parties to deliver on what they promise when in government, it's practically impossible to do this in a coalition as a minor party. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of coalition politics to talk about every policy dropped as a broken promise. It's an old style of narrative the media is used to but it doesn't accurately represent the coming together of conflicting polices and the positive influence Lib Dems have upon the resulting policy.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, of course we lie. This is the new politics. Don't you get it?

Coalition coalition coalition

 

[articul8]

the positive influence Lib Dems have upon the resulting policy.

Where's the evidence of this?

 

[moon23]

You're saying that your party has no politics. You're an idiot.

No, you're an idiot that can't distinguish between dogmatical and pragmatical politics.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Rather that Labour are very good at spin. A minority Tory government wouldn't have been a minority for very long, and would also have resulted in far greater fiscal problems as uncertainty damaged our potential for economic growth. I also think it would be rather difficult for a party that believes in consensus politics and coalitions to turn one down.

If you believe in consensus politics and coalitions why make a pledge that you know you'll have to break in order to form a coalition? I fail to see how not acting could possibly be any worse for the economy than these moronic cuts, given that they risk sending us into a double dip.

A minority Tory government would not be a minority for long, I agree. But there's a fair chance that their inability to govern as a minority would discredit them in the eyes of the electorate and cause a swing in favour of Labour, and even the Lib Dems.

You're right about one thing though; you really are crap at spin.

 

[moon23]

Where's the evidence of this?

For instance raising the repayment threshold on tuition fees, delaying a decision on Trident & enacting the pupil premium.

 

[Streathamite]

the positive influence Lib Dems have upon the resulting policy.

oh ffs, WHAT positive influence? The tories have done everything they wanted to!

 

[SpineyNorman]

No, you're an idiot that can't distinguish between dogmatical and pragmatical politics.

So there's no dogma whatsoever in the free-market fundamentalism you espouse? Pull the other one.

(That's dogmatic and pragmatic by the way)

 

[SpineyNorman]

For instance raising the repayment threshold on tuition fees, delaying a decision on Trident & enacting the pupil premium.

You mean the repayment threshold that is part of a bill that includes the increase in tuition fees your MPs promised to oppose? That repayment threshold? Well done. Have a peanut.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I thought this open and honest "new politics" might include such radical notions as telling the truth. How naive of me.

 

[Streathamite]

For instance raising the repayment threshold on tuition fees, delaying a decision on Trident & enacting the pupil premium.

Oh FFS! The miniscule gain from the first is TOTALLY wiped out by the hike to 39k and the decimation of govt teaching funding for Uni's, the second was prompted by deficit reduction and cuts mania (and if you think the tories will EVER agree to cancelling our nuke deterrent, you're living in lalaland) and the third was NOT created by increasing the overall education budget, so you're just robbing peter to pay paul, and it may not help the poorest kids after all!.
any other 'positive influences' that have achieved fuck all that you'd care to tell us about?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Look, we might have gone into coalition with the Tories, thus enabling them to impose these cuts. But we made sure that there would be some nice frilly dressings on them (the cuts they wouldn't have been able to impliment without our consent). Aren't we great?

Is this really the best you can do?

 

[moon23]

If you believe in consensus politics and coalitions why make a pledge that you know you'll have to break in order to form a coalition? I fail to see how not acting could possibly be any worse for the economy than these moronic cuts, given that they risk sending us into a double dip.

Perhaps people shouldn't make pledges on issues they are not prepared to make lines in the sand around coalition negation tables. I think it was a mistake to negotiate a coalition agreement that broke pledges. Then again I wasn’t around the table so I don’t know what the Tories would have extracted if we insisted the pledge was kept.

You're right about one thing though; you really are crap at spin.

I don't profess to be good at it.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Perhaps people shouldn't make pledges on issues they are not prepared to make lines in the sand around coalition negation tables.

No shit. But what about clear yellow water? Will that do if there's no sand?

I don't profess to be good at it.

Honesty from a Lib Dem. Now there's a novelty.

 

[moon23]

Look, we might have gone into coalition with the Tories, thus enabling them to impose these cuts. But we made sure that there would be some nice frilly dressings on them (the cuts they wouldn't have been able to impliment without our consent). Aren't we great?

Is this really the best you can do?

Any party that got into power would have had to have made cuts, I think they are fairer as a result of the parties infulence in power. For instance locally the Lib Dem Council is allowing people to have a say in where the cuts fall.

 

[Streathamite]

This line of defence is very good btw - yes, we're shit but so are the others. Yes, we lie - but so do they.

tb grudgingly f, that's more or less the line the labour bloke used when canvassing me in the GE; "we're crap, but the others are even worse, and the candidates a good bloke who's always voting against the govt".
(he nearly lost my vote to the greens for that alone)

 

[butchersapron]

Perhaps people shouldn't make pledges on issues they are not prepared to make lines in the sand around coalition negation tables.

...

I don't profess to be good at it.

This must surely win some sort of award?

 

[butchersapron]

No, you're an idiot that can't distinguish between dogmatical and pragmatical politics.

Pretty sure i can. Pretty sure the majority of other people can too. And i'm also pretty sure this is being reflected in the ongoing collapse of your support.

 

[Streathamite]

the party won a lot of compromise from the Conservatives in that agreement.

You WHAT?????

If people choose they prefer FPTP that's their call, it wouldn't affect whether I thought giving them that choice was worthwhile or not

but AV ain't PR - it's FPTP with a slight variation

 

[moon23]

Pretty sure i can. Pretty sure the majority of other people can too. And i'm also pretty sure this is being reflected in the ongoing collapse of your support.

Fair enough if that's what people think, it's a democracy they can vote in the next election and choose who they want. Personally I think the party has won a lot of good things and the govenrment is better for our being in it.

 

[Streathamite]

Perhaps people shouldn't make pledges on issues they are not prepared to make lines in the sand around coalition negation tables..

so basically, your politics, and those of your party are 'every principle, every value, every policy is up for sale to the highest bidder". Why should anyone ever take any future manifesto of yours seriously?

 

[butchersapron]

Fair enough if that's what people think, it's a democracy they can vote in the next election and choose who they want. Personally I think the party has won a lot of good things and the govenrment is better for our being in it.

It's actually amazing that you can damn not lying as being dogmatic, as being old fashioned and as something to be a bit ashamed of.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Any party that got into power would have had to have made cuts, I think they are fairer as a result of the parties infulence in power. For instance locally the Lib Dem Council is allowing people to have a say in where the cuts fall.

But didn't Clegg say that cutting too soon would be a disaster, thus placing him closer to Labour? And I'll ask again, what is this influence? How has it made anything better? I must confess I am unable to detect it.

Again I will say it; if you hadn't cosied up to them, the Tories would be a minority government. They would be unable to pass anything without the consent of MPs from across the floor. Policies would have to be drawn up with this in mind, or else they would not pass. Whereas now you're having to vote through policies that directly contradict your manifesto (and specific pledges from individual MPs) in order to maintain the coalition. How is this better?

Don't worry about getting your leg hacked off, the council will allow you to choose which leg it is. Aren't we brilliant?!

 

[SpineyNorman]

Fair enough if that's what people think, it's a democracy they can vote in the next election and choose who they want. Personally I think the party has won a lot of good things and the govenrment is better for our being in it.

Yet you can't actually name any (certainly nothing we couldn't have expected from a full on Blue Tory government). People will choose who they vote for in the election, on that you are correct. This is why you are finished.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It's actually amazing that you can damn not lying as being dogmatic, as being old fashioned and as something to be a bit ashamed of.

Nah, provided you're doing it to secure a coalition your actions can contradict your promises and it's not lying. Apparently.

 

[moon23]

Yet you can't actually name any (certainly nothing we couldn't have expected from a full on Blue Tory government). People will choose who they vote for in the election, on that you are correct. This is why you are finished.

There are a whole host of things, taken from - http://wantagelibdems.org.uk/news/000230/coalition_government_is_delivering_lib_dem_policies.html

· A referendum on the Alternative Vote to take place in May 2011

· The right to sack MPs guilty of serious misconduct

· Fixed term parliaments of five years

· Reform of party funding

· Moving towards an elected House of Lords, elected by proportional representation

· A statutory register of lobbyists

· A radical devolution of power and greater financial autonomy to local government and community groups

The Liberal Democrats promised a raft of policies to help the economy recover and make sure that we build a new green and sustainable economy fit for the 21st century. A huge number of these policies will now become a reality, including:

· Tough action to tackle the deficit

· The creation of a green investment bank

· Reform of the banking system to make sure that banks lend to viable British businesses

· An independent commission on separating investment and retail banking

· Measures to improve energy efficiency in homes and businesses

· Support for low carbon energy production and an increase the target for energy from renewable sources

· Enabling the creation of a national high speed rail network

· The creation of a smart electricity grid and the roll-out of smart meters

· The establishment of an emissions performance standard that will prevent coal-fired power stations being built unless they are equipped with Carbon Capture and Storage Technology

· Replacing Air Passenger Duty with a per-plane duty

· The provision of a floor price for carbon, as well as working to persuade the EU to move towards full auctioning of ETS permits

The Liberal Democrats have long campaigned for the restoration of freedoms and civil liberties eroded under Labour and the rolling back of the surveillance state. A huge number of Lib Dem policies will now happen, including:

· The abolition of Identity Cards, the National Identity register, the next generation of biometric passports and the ContactPoint Database

· The repeal of unnecessary laws

· Further regulation of CCTV

· The outlawing of finger-printing of children at school without permission

· Extending the Freedom of Information Act

· Ending child detention for immigration purposes

· Removal of innocent people from the DNA database

There are also a host of other Lib Dem policies that will now happen under the Coalition Government. These include:

· Fair compensation for Equitable Life victims

· The modernisation of the Royal Mail

· Flexible working and promotion of equal pay

· Reform of the NHS to strengthen the voices of patients and the role of doctors

· A commission on long-term reform of social care

· Cutting Quangos and government bureaucracy

· Implementing the recommendations of the Calman Commission on Scottish devolution

· A referendum on further powers for the Welsh Assembly

 

[DotCommunist]

The modernisation of the Royal Mail

yeah, we know what that means.

 

[Sgt Howie]

"Hey council tenants, its ok, you've got a statutory register of lobbyists"